I'm going to attempt to be direct and to the point here.

A few things that are starting to bug me (first I'll write the problem, then what bugs me, then possible solutions):

1. "I was hacked! All your info was lost. I'm sorry. AKA We have no record of your account."
2. "No people from this country because they are known cheaters"
3. General TOS. "We are not responsible for anything, you can be liable for everything."
4. "People using cheater software will be banned! Anyone using optimization software is a cheater!"
5. "If you make us mad, we will ban you"

1. This is the probably the most irritating thing on the list. Basically you're saying that your program sucks. There is no reason that your database shouldn't be backed up, or have safety features on it. (I have solutions to this, but they are long winded, and require programming.)

2. Okay, this is like saying, no one should join ANY GPTR because there are WMs that are know cheaters. It's one thing to ban because they don't speak the language, that has some amount of reason to it. But because most "cheaters" come from there? Cmon.

3. So anytime you lose my (or other member's money and TIME) it's just sorry. Why would anyone want to join your program (or any for that matter, they all seem to use the same scripts)? Get real, you have to have some level of resposibility.

4. Okay, all you Windows users, STOP. Your advertisers wouldn't care so much if you did you own actual investigation of "cheater" software. plug-ins, Multiple browsers? Is that cheating?
Here is what I have heard about cheating:
a. Altering the timers
b. Prevention of reading emails
c. Visiting more than one site at a time from the same program.
d. Having more than one personal account
--Now that's pretty reasonable. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can prevent people from using Outlook with plug-ins. And scaring your advertisers into thinking people are cheating because they are using it, is just fraudulant. Further, for the record... Why do you care so much? This stuff is designed for the people without downlines. Are you afraid they might actually reach payout, and you will have to pay them? Heaven forbid! Those are the people that are probably Actually reading the ads. They aren't so concerned about their downline! They are there for your advertisers!

5. Well, I guess that works both ways. Or all three ways. Main stream advertisers won't take kindly to programs run by heavy handed, iron-fisted arse-kissers. If you're only concern is yourself, fine, but don't be unprofessional by letting everyone else know.

This does not sound like a stable business. The day I see some mainstream advertisers using your programs to advertise, is the day I really give a poo what's in the TOS, and pay more attention to the emails. All I have seen from most GPTR sites are other GPTR sites, and scamsters. Oh yes, you have been advertising scamsters, whethere you know it (and I'm sure you do) or not.

Think for yourselves members. Stop kissing arse for a couple extra cents. It's just not savvy.

(This is subject to change as I come up with more things that are getting under my skin. GPTR is starting to go Gestapo people. Like a fascist regime.)

Solutions to members. Don't do GPTR right now.
Solutions to webmasters: If you are TRULY interested in solving your interanal problems...
1. They need to be HONESTLY identified. i.e. Know what it is EXACTLY that you want to fix.
2. Find someone that can fix the problem.

I would ask that you take an HONEST look at these problems folks. And not act with hostility. I know the truth hurts, but as any alcoholic can tell you, the first step is to admit there is a problem. Then you take step to fix it.

Those that respond, do us all a favor, and just quote parts, not the whole freaking thing.

ROFL, here you go again theengineer

You seem very unhappy to play in this GPTworld but just can't leave, can ya ? :-)

For your information, a lot of us are far less misearble than what you think, have far more fun than what you think, make even some money and are very very honest .... and we're very flattered you take so much care of us ... but some of us are even grown-ups and know what we're doing, the risks of it and the benefits of it ;-)

Oh, and I don't know if you've done this for long but the problems you see are known problems, not hidden ones .. and you know what, they're even other ones you didn't mention and a lot of people try to better this GPTworld every day

And thanks for the smile ... now that I was told most of your posts were humour :-)

Sophie

Oh Myyyyyyy, hehehee i have to giggle on this one...lol
Ok, 1 I am a program owner, as well as a programmer that does troubleshoot, fix/correct, backup databases, pay my members when the time comes, I am honest and try very hard to protect my members, program and self from attacks from hackers and cheaters etc, Of course most are using the same scripts, the only differences are that code is added, deleted etc and most of the time just a totally different design but after the program has gotten up and running and the WM/owner gets used to what they are doing.... true they do need to take more time in security and safety of the entire program (members & scripts etc) and believe me, I don't have the time to babysit anyone, if they go against the terms or whatever, then I have to make decision on what to do and what is in the best interest of the program and members alike! Now I'm saying that what u have listed isn't valid nor how u may feel, however, I will say that I do care about my members, I do get what I need to keep the operations of the site up to date... I will not permit anyone that tries to in any way be anything other that honest, even if I don't like what is said or done, truth is truth, and can't be disputed! But dishonesty isn't cool, specially if someone is told that this or that has to be done in order to get paid and then they do as they wish and not as directed... ughhhhhh...
Now If u honestly take the PTR world and adverts as u have stated here I hope that u are not apart of my programs... and besides... lol.. if u don't care or discount our advertising and terms and how we do things then tell me why are u so worried about it that u have to even post here or be apart of any PTRE? Let alone sit and kiss hinny to get the couple of cents... just like the rest of US? Now that is funny... just a thought... before I close...lol.. the greatest of all flattery is the attention recieved from anger or revengeful thoughts (not actions!!!) Why? Because of the effort & dedication of "I'm gonna get ya for that! I'm going to post negative remarks and let the whole world know what u did!" lmao... If u truely feel the way u have said then why worry about posting here, being a member in any program, or even clicking the links period? I think that its because u just want to have a few words and this is all you can think to say at this time...
Now, finally, this isn't a personal attack, just fact...lol
Have a grand day/night!
Hyper

Engineer - I'll reply to your post with one of my own.

The title of the post would be:

Webmasters - don't be conned by your members.

1. My program has been hacked It was hacked by another member with specialised software. However I have a backup and all will be restored. It's a shame that a fellow member has to resort to this and spoil it for others

2. No people are allowed to join from "zxxxxx" country. This is because the majority use the same email address which either has us blocked or continually bounces. Or it's because most members from this country enter false information such as country:none. Or because many members from this country sign up again and again under themselves to try to cheat. Maybe all members should buy advertising so it can be sent out to members who don't bother to read or to members only for their ad to bounce.

3. General TOS. "We are not responsible for anything, you can be liable for everything." - Tell you what members, send us anything you like, all the scams so us webmasters can take the blame when all goes wrong and no responsibility falls on members.

4. People using cheater software will be banned! Anyone using optimization software is a cheater!" - OK members, please feel free to use cheater software so your ads will not be read by others.

5. If you make us mad we will not ban you, we will ask you to send more insulting emails, more discrediting of webmasters, more nasty grams. We love members insulting our intelligence. It really makes it interesting. In fact the more you send the better. It makes it all worth while.

Hey engineer - before you seem to want to trash program owners, why not get a program of your own then you can really see what us program owners have to do to try keep members and advertisers happy.

Otherwise, why not just give up the GPTRE and find something else.

I think you are missing the spirit of what I'm saying earners.

I'm not saying that all the responsibility should be on the owners. Just the money. You are messing with people's time and money.

There are good sites. This is for all the bad ones that say they want to fix their problems, but really don't.

If your site is run well, great. More power to you. This is to get people to think about what's going on. I'm seeing a lot of totalitarianism, and expectations of the WMs on their member base. This doesn't affect the members with huge downlines as much as the members with none.

Remember, the ones at the bottom do feed the top (or they don't?).

You can in fact ignore emails. If someone is being mean, well, just ignore it. I get flamed all the time. I don't take it personally. I have just seen WMs take advantage of a TOS against members to drop their account and in a way... steal their earnings.

Members being angry is part of any business. You have to hear complaints. If you are getting abused, does that mean something is wrong with your system? Or does it mean there are just a lot of jerks out there?

As far as "hacking". Can't say. I'm guessing anyone that gets into the admin is a hacker (or I like to say "cracker").


Hyper... Good, glad to hear you have a well run site. I should know being a member.

I'm not missing anything at all

Until you run your own program you should not judge others. You should also look at it from a webmasters point and not just a members point.

There are problems both ways in this business.



Do members not put a lot of expectation on the webmaster?



Are members who cheat, don't support advertisers, don't support the program not messing with peoples time and money?
Of course they are.

Your original post was completely aimed at webmasters and you really do need to look at things from both sides before making judgements on something that you have no experience of.

I could go on but I've made my point.

Look at things both ways!

Agrrrrrrrrrrreed.

LOL, even sometimes when you run your own programme, you still can't judge others ...... nope ????

I agree with earners... 100%

Webmasters not only run programs, they also belong to many. So probably the first question they ask themselves is "will I accept this from another program that I am a member of?". You see, they do look at problems from both angels (webmaster as well as member)

I was a member of a lot of program before I became a program owner myself. Without starting a program of your own, you don't have the faintest idea how difficult/ frustrating/ disgusting/ wonderful/ exciting it is to run a program. This does not apply to all members. When I used the word "you" I was referring to theengineer.

Hi you webmasters ;-)

You really think we all are stupid and can't imagine what it is to be a webmaster ..... wondering if I am going to be offended or will just sit back and smile ;-)

Sophie
(who knows very well why she decided NOT to be a webmaster :-) )

Actually no. You are wrong with your assumption that we think members are stupid and that they cannot imagine what it is to be a webmaster.

Also, "imagining" and "actually doing" are two different things. I am still learning how different it is.

ROFL Enchanted, if it was not you, I would really be offended ... I know imagining and doing are different things ... and that's why I don't DO it .... phew, playing with words like that .....

And btw, we can't NOT know how difficult it is, webmasters keep on maoning and ranting about it all over the place and still, I can understand why you think people don't know what it is ... people begin every day and launch new sites without knowing anything about running a site ... if they had thought a bit more about it, many wouldn't have done it ... well, maybe they wanted their name in green at GPF ;-)

Sophie

I already knew enough when I was not a wm(and that was why I didn't have my site earlier),but running a site is totally different....

ok, so basically, what you all say, is that members have no idea what it is to run a site because some of you didn't know what it was when you started and therefore members are not entitled to have an opinion about anything because they just don't know how it is ?

omg, what a sentence I put there lol

Sophie

No one said that in this thread. Who did?
I don't understand why you are saying that.

First,I didn't say I didn't know what it is to run a site
I said I knew enough.I knew how difficult running a site is & that is why i didn't have my site earlier
but as Enchanted said,knowing & actully doing are different.That is what I think.

members are entitled to have an opinion & wms are too
Forgot to say that you can alway tell what you think.
(if you take what we said in a different way)

I copied this from earner's first post : Until you run your own program you should not judge others

And after that everyone agreed ;-)

And maybe it's because it's an accumulation of things, very often when a member asks something, wonders about glitches, the answer he receives is not far from that : you don't know what it is to run a website ....

And the continuous : we're a member as well ... hmmmmm, some webmasters forget what it is to be an average member like most of their membership is ... with less than 10 referrals and clicking like mad for a penny ;-)

And yes, we can say what we think but .... we better be prepared for the replies as well ... now that there are almost more webmasters than members around in the GPT world

Sophie

I NEVER SAID members don't have an idea what it is to run a site, I never said members are not entitled to have their opinion.

My name maybe in Green as a "program owner". Yes I co-own TKO sites but I am still new to all of this and Richard is very patiently teaching me how to run the sites. I had a very good idea that running a program would be difficult, but HOW difficult it was, is something that I learned once I started handling paid2read by myself. We learn by DOING, not by reading posts and talking about it.

I am an average member of lots of ptr programs and in most I have less than 10 referrals and I am also actively clicking the links of the programs I belong to.

I am sorry if I give any member the impression that I am under-estimating their abilities to understand the workings of a gptr site. This is not what I am trying to do. I am not saying webmasters do everything right the first time. Running a site is also a learning experience for us as new issues come up all the time. It's a "continuous learning process". We make mistakes, members knock sense into us and we try to make amends. But as stated above, I still agree with earners that until you run your own program, you should not judge others (no sophie, this is not directed at you. It's a general comment).

LOL, didn't take that personally.

And I don't judge anyone, couldn't care less ... I just decide which webmaster I will be loyal to and which I won't according to my own experience, needs, habits, culture, morals, education, downline, earnings whatever .....

And ... what about, as long as you're not a politician, don't judge the politicians running your country ? (ok, this was a joke, right, don't jump at me ?)

Sophie

That's a different kettle of fish altogether lol, though it has its similarities.

If you are not a sophieca,don't judge sophieca posting here

Have no clue how to quote two posts but Enchanted and ppprk ..... you made me laugh

Made me laugh too.

I don't think anyone really knows how hard it is to administer a website. Especially one that has people's money, unless they have done it.

The average member doesn't care if the site went down because of this reason or that. They care about their money. That's why they joined in the first place.

When a member hears, "We got hacked" from 20 different sites, and they are only part of 40. That says a lot about their security.

The sites that do take responsibility and say the backups will be coming are the best I've seen. They handle everything professionally. Members don't have to know EVERYTHING, just that their account is safe. There is NO REASON why their earnings can't be protected, or their account recovered.

I have seen both sides. Some WMs that say, "I can't do anything... " and the ones that say, "Ooops, I messed up, I'll have this fixed."

Which one do you want to be? I'm almost sure your members want you to be the latter.

If a webmaster says "I can't do anything", don't you think they say it after trying their best to sort out the problem? They wouldn't just say that and expect members to accept it as an answer.

First let me say, I have enormous respect for honest, hardworking, dilligent WMs. (makes me think of that line my kids use..."Glad to see ya, wouldn't want to be ya")

THis is in NO WAY an accusation. I use it only as an example. I won't name the site but everyone knows who it is.

During the Christman rash of "hacking", one of the larger sites i belong to said that they had been attacked. I was so upset and angry on their behalf. What I wasn't was worried about my account. Huge membership, longstanding reputation in the PTR world, not a cookie cutter site. They seemed to have a firm grasp on the workings of a PTR.

Long story short, when everything was finally resolved the members had their earnings back but not their downline. (of course it was one in which i had over 100 in, lol). The reason given was that the backup was corrupt.

Maybe I'm just cynical but my first thought was..."Oh right, the backup is corrupted at the VERY SAME time that site is attacked." Maybe it was, I'll never know or care.

My point is that NOW the site bodly touts that accounts are safe because they are backed up daily.

Ummmm...meaning they weren't before? or.. i don't know. All I know is that the site WAS suppose to have been backed up last time and I still lost. Doesn't make me feel very secure.

Most WMs tell us that they are running a business and have to implement changes to protect that business. As regular people, would any WM accept some of the things expected of us in any other business? I can just see people's reactions if their credit card company told them they owed X $ but since the database crashed a itemized list would be impossible. Would anyone accept this?

It's pretty rare that a WM is seen claiming fault. So many many programs, so many unexperience owners, such a complicate process to administrating pts but more often than not members are told...dbase crashed, i was hacked, there's a bug in my script (only mine not ALL the other sites that run the same scripts). "It's NOT MY FAULT". I may not know what it takes to run a program but I'm not so stupid as to know that hacks and crashes are convenient. Doesn't anyone ever just screw up? I would think THAT would be the more prevalent reason for site problems considering the experience level of numerous WMs.

Back to the Christmas incident.... Can any WM say that all those sites were in fact hacked? How many jumped on the occasion to wipe the debt from their ledgers? How many took advantage of the situation to their benefit?

You can see how members MIGHT become a little jaded with wms as a whole.

There are some truly wonderful WMs out there that love what they do, love their membership and go the extra mile to do this the right way. I stopped joining everything that comes along and now look for those. Sadly, for every one WM like that, there are 10 that don't really care.

I think both sides of the PTR coin suck, lol. There are crappy WMs and crappy members. Both need to work to make things better.

btw Enchanted...I doubt theenginner was talking about the part of TOS that allows wm to delete members for "attacks" on the wm. I'd think it's more about the change of pay out rate, country of origin, that memebrs have to click 50%+ of the links their dls click to get paid.....
Most of the time changes are made, it's not that the new terms are bad in and of themselves, it's just that those weren't the terms when the members signed up. At that point, if wms offered members payout if they disagree with the new terms, I think it would be fine. But instead, members get told to quit if they aren't happy. Well, they WERE happy before the changes as per the TOS they were instructed to read before joining. (yes, i know they all say subject to change)

as usual, my 2 cents is WAY TOO long. I apologize. I think if you are a good wm, you know it and aren't offended my the complaints that are obviously lobbed at those that are not!

I agree that some w/m`s are scammers, ex.deleting 20,000 people becuase they either are cheaters, or their downlines are cheaters therfor they ``must `` be too and after so much debate , put all the so-called cheaters back in the program and get everyones money up to payout and then skipping town, how is that for a scammer???? (no names mentiond, need it be??? LOL)
I belong to about 100 companys, been ripped completley off but about 5 wether it be my earnings or my gold membership and they disapeare right after I payed. but that still leaves 95 programs, many of wich the owner has 3 to 6 programs that I belong to, many are hONEST w/m`s I have had my account screwed with because of hackers, data base losses, ect, lost a LOT of referals and money, soem programs I choose to stay with because I liked the w/m`s, some I just never signed back up with. there are GOOd members and w/m`s and there are bad , it is jsut weeding out the bad that takes a long time and they keep comming back. I believe all sites need to do backup every day to every other day, becuase it isnt fair that we lose our earnings and referals because of some hacker, data base problem (and it isnt the w/m`s fault either , but its their buiseness so they have to do the backups) and I do believe in the cheat links, it keeps people that cant understand english out of the programs and people using cheat software out also (I do not understand this software as I have never seen it before so I dont quit understand it, but from what I understand it opens a lot of links at the same time? but cant we do that by just clicking the links to open in new windows anyway on regular internet explorer?) I dont believe in penalizing a whhole country because of some cheaters, but I do believe you can ask certain countries to ask for permission to join, then you will know they can read what your advertisements say.
I say hats off to all the wonderful w/m`s (you know who you are ) and and the bad ones, I really have nothing to say that hasnt been said already. I do not own a ptr site because I do not know enough about how to run one and I do feel sorry fr the good nes that get some really bad emails from members, if you talked that way to your boss at your regular job you wouldnt have your job any more would you?whatever happened to treat people as you want to be treated? that should be the motto for memebrs and /m`s alike hugss all, have a great week

Only half a year in this gpt. It's fun, sometimes not.
But one thing i really do not understand.

When i do some work for somebody, i get paid for it. Always. Sometimes the same day, but always, i repeat always at the end of the month.

In get paid to, that real world is turned around sometimes to the extreme. I might accept to click, read search for 10 cents/hour. With a minimum payout of sometimes $100, $500; say pay-day after 4-6 years!

Accepting that, I accept also that there could be a lot wrong between now and payday. And we do sign up. Look to a site offering $50 bonus (payout at $500), you can see the people stumble over eachother in order to become a member! From the wm point of view, great.

A good solution is that wm pay at the end of the month, no minimum, it can be done automaticically, right?. Why oh why that is not done? When they want to pay, why not at the end of the month, why keep it (and loose it with unhealty investments?) Less room for cheaters (members and wm) no more huge losses when the site is mismanaged or hacked. It will force wm to pay a realistic rate too, avoiding further frustrations.

But as long as members accept to be paid (maybe) after 6 or more months of clicking, there will be problems, i am sure of that.

Was the question ever asked as to how they got the earnings data out if the backup was corrupt?

Was the question ever asked as to why they hadn't bothered to test the backup?

ROFL about corrupt back-up .... I asked about it to one of my webmaster's friend, was told that unless you were very new in business, you had to regularly, open your back-up, check if it was ok and check if all members are correctly backed up (for this particular webmasters, I can tell you, it's not a job done in 10 minutes, the site is bigggggg) ... I was told that if an experienced webmaster gave the 'corrupt back-up excuse' or it was a louysy webmaster having not done the job properly checking back-ups (it's a known fact now that back-ups can be corrupted) or it was someone trying to find and easy way out to delete some earnings ....

Me not judging anyone here, just reporting what I was told

ROFL Sophie

In this program's defense...all earnings WERE put back...it was only the downlines, ALL referrals, were lost.

I don't see this as being of any immediate benefit for the owners. Long term, it will take everyone a heck of a lot longer to cash out.

I don't know!

(i just know that if I tried that with the gov't regarding my company books...AHAHAHA they would NOT be very understanding!)

I'm not bothering to quote anyone, but I have a few observations.

It's true that things are very different when you are actually running a site.
I'm not saying members are stupid or have no idea. I'm just saying it gives you a different outlook.

Yes, backups can become corrupt.
I help guard against that by NOT copying the newest backup over the last one.
If I had to depend on a backup, if the newest were corrupt, I would have the one before that to fall back on.

There really are hackers out there, and sites really do get hacked. My site has been hacked. I didn't lie about that or imagine it.
Just the same as there are always new viruses hitting the net which can infect your computer until you get the newest anti-virus patch to guard against it, hackers are conyinually finding new ways to hack sites and servers.
Server owners are constantly having to install new anti-hacker software, and some hacker comes along that finds a way to get around it. So more software is installed to keep the hackers out of that hole. A hacker finds a new way to get in.
It is a never-ending war. It's very difficult to stay one step ahead of the hackers.

Hi F&E ;-)

We know there are hackers and we know you don't think we're stupid .. just after some years of doing this, we have our cynical days ... and that's why I said, when I join a site, the main reason is generally because I appreciate the webmaster, it's the webmaster making the site, it's the key of the site ;-)

And have seen some server owners saying they were hacked as well not only webmasters ..... sometimes it's true ... sometimes it's doubtful ... but the people with good back-ups generally can keep the loyalty of their members because the members don't lose a lot or often don't lose anything, why fake you're hacked if you don't earn anything from it ;-)

Off topic : Hope your site is ok now, phew, what a job ;-)

Sophie

OMG Sophie...did you get finger cramps typing THAT one?

and to all the WM....I just started doing PTR late last year---have NO idea as to the how of running a site (heck I have trouble figuring out some stuff on this possessed puter) but as a member, I don't think y'all think I'm stupid...just that I think people sometimes forget that the WM are HUMAN....they DO have lives outside this crazy world of the Internet too and they get the brunt of the nasty emails when something goes wrong at their site--whether it was their fault or not, within their control or not! I have enough trouble dealing with the occasional jerk at work...I CANNOT even begin to imagine going to the puter and having an Inbox full of nasty or insulting emails!

I have unsubbed from more than a few programs in the past month...had a question after I hunted high and low on the site for the answer to then emailed the WM...am a VERY patient person (I'm oooold lol) but when I didn't get an answer but still got paid emails from the site, I just said adios! I have no confidence in a site that'll make money off ya but won't answer an email (in two weeks time no less). Maybe I might be considered impatient...but so's life

See ya later Sophie and y'all

George

George?
I'm quite sure you are female.

Free

If you aren't one of the WM I described then you have nothing to be upset about.

I'm sure even you can admit there are corrupt WMs out there.

Hmmmm does a table saw make you think of anyone?


As I said, this isn't a slam against all WMs, just those that deserve it!

btw,I agree with earners,but don't disagree with what theengineer said too.
I also think there are corrupt WMs out there..

Hi peer,

Regarding payments paid automatically end of the month, we tried that with hot cash and members wrote to us asking us not to do it. You see, sometimes members do not accumulate so much (the ones without referrals or very few referrals). So they prefer to wait till they accumulate around $1 or more than that before getting paid.

I personally prefer to run a no min payout or monthly pay out program, but not all members like it.

I didn't take anything personally; I was just making my own observations.

And I fully agree with you, there are some very corrupt wm's out there, I have had the misfortune to deal with some of them!

Hmmmm......tablesaw.....

Maybe what we should do it TAKE member comments (the posts here) personally, not as an insult because hopefully we do not belong to that corrupt webmasters category LOL. But who says that you can learn from YOUR own mistakes only? We can learn from other people's mistakes too.

We know what sort of things that can go wrong, to what extent members tolerate, what sort of replies members would be happy with (e.g replace words like "sorry I cannot do anything" to a GENUINE "I messed up, I will do my best to rectify" as theengineer rightly says) etc.

As I said previously, running a ptr site is a continuous learning process for us (well at least it is for me) where I feel I learn something new everyday. Whether members know it or not, their comments in this forum does give us plenty of food for thought to correct/ improve ourselves and move forwards.

ROFL, she IS female ;-)

So was George Sand ....

Sophie

I have a friend named Georgina who gets called George all the time....it's a fairly common abbreviation.

Oooh that's a good one but it's not correct themom1955 is not called Georgina

"The world loves to see a hero fail"

:ph34r:

Maybe not, but I was only trying to point out that it *might* be short for something.

Wasn't George Sand a pseudonym?

roflmaoooooooo--sorry y'all been a long day...and it ain't over yet nope my name in the real world isn't Georgina...not even close they call me Gloria at work, MOOOOOM at home and more people know me as George than the two above combined and Sophie knows the why of George, right Sophie?

Right