I've been aching to post here about the Webmaster of Greenletter, I wanted to make sure I had enough proof to shut his mouth first! This Person is a Cheater in the worst sense of the word!!!

I just started my program about 1 month ago and I was very new to hosting a PTR program. I had the usual problems that most have when just starting out.

Will offered helpful suggestions and tips that would make my job easier and more profitable. I appreciated his help and offered him free banner impressions, a free text link and even free email advertising.

Shortly after this, he requested payment. It had already been stated that payment requests would not be accepted until May 15, 2003. So I first told him no. he pleaded with me to give him an early payout and so I did. I ran a promotion during pre-launch where I paid 25 cents per referral. He had racked up $15.81 in referrals and a $2 referral bonus within the first 2-3 days. I paid him via PayPal close to $18.

Next I received a very similar email from another webmaster that was very helpful to me. His name is Mark and his userid is TCC, He claimed to be the webmaster of TheCashClub. I too had given him free banner advertising, a text link and ran his ad via email to my members as well.
He too requested to be paid early. He said "please, I will do whatever I can to help promote your site". I went ahead and paid him too via PayPal 8.27 cents plus a $2 signup bonus.

I didn't think much else of until I did a search by IP address and both of these accounts had several members with the same IP address they had. I removed TCC and MysticalSeller from my database. I later found out that it was common for several members with various ISPs to show up with the same IP address so I put them back in and reinstated their earnings and referrals.

I really did not want to think that I couldn't trust these people. but red flags kept coming up. I have been receiving angry emails from people threatening to report me for spam because they did not opt in to receive emails. when I checked these accounts they were referred by TCC. I sent out an email to everyone on TCC's referral list to verify the accounts. I received a box full of undeliverable mail and 2 very nasty emails from members claiming not to have signed up. One woman didn't even have a clue as to what a PTR program was.

I'm not saying that none of the accounts were valid because many were.

After doing an audit of MysticalSeller's account I found numerous invalid referrals and so I deleted his account again. He emailed me and threatened to call me a cheater in th forums and spread bad word about my site. He repeatedly said the words "Do the right thing and pay me what you owe me"

I remembered the wording that was used when TCC asked me to re-instate his account and it was almost identical to what MysticalSeller Said. Almost as if it were scripted or something.

I just found out yesterday that the Cash Club and Greenletter are the same site
http://www.TheCashClub.com

I decided to do a test so I had my husband email Mark Dean (TCC) and ask him if he is the owner of Greenletter and if so could he have some information about the program. This is the response he got.

Yes, I am the owner, yes you can make money with my program, if you are a dedicated user, you can cash out in 5-8 months I run a very giving site that I take care of my members, Thanks for asking, You are welcome to ask me anything at anytime

Thanks, Mark Dean
Webmaster

How can Mark Dean and Will be the webmaster of Greenletter?

So you see, not only did he have many bogus referrals, he also had 2 separate identities.

Stay away from his site, he is dishonest. It's just unfortunate that I didn't find out until after I parted with so much of my money.

LV Jones
Webmaster
Paymerightnow Paid2REad

Nice Try But you're already busted!!!

Just last night when you went to Green Letter The banner said The Cash Club/Green Letter . Anyone whos visited your site would know that.

Funny how after the truth comes out you are still trying to clean it up.

Now when you go to the Green Letter site, it only says Greenletter So you must have heard about this post. I still have the email where you said you were Mark Dean the webmaster of Greenletter. Or is it Will?

http://www.greenletter.com

hehehehee, u go grl!~!!!! So, now I must say, I seem to remember those words about doing the right thing too...lol.. and my response was this, I AM doing the right thing and that is NOT PAYING that cheater...lol.. which I told him promptly... so, now if he reads this, there's just one more thing? Who is being busted now? Also, who is a scam? I have never hiden the fact that I have more than 1 email account, I use different addresses for different things, but I have never used different accounts for any 1 program! Nor have I ever tried to decieve ppl! It just goes to show u never know just who u are talking with, so be honest to begin with then ya don't have to worry about it... oh yeah my friend, PMRW, I got that same threat also, but honest webmaster/owners arean't affraid of bad mouthing, no one can plz everyone all the time, and without some complaints there wouldn't be change, also, honest wm/owners aren't affraid of empty threats why? because the truth always comes out and if we've done nothing wrong then there isn't anything to worry about... besides I myself doesn't take threats, its like the trash, I just throw'em away...lol... thank u for the post PMRW my friend... I will publicly right now offer this with nothing wanted in return, if u need any help, advice, script/programming done (like error handling etc) or anything else I can do u let me know and I will do all that I can to help u, without wanting so much as a $0.00000001 of a cent in return... :>)
Hyper

These would be the 2 webmasters that have cheated ME out of my earnings with their programs. Here's how it worked:

I posted a not about HyPer and Dollars4 mail - she called me a cheat (yeah, right)

Paymerightnow read the poste - then decided to get on the bandwagon to cheat me - citing Hyper as a source.

I've lost $40 between these two LIARS. Enough nonsense about GreenLetter being a cheat. My 13,000 members vs. your 1000+ members shows you which programs work and which ones cheat their members. I wish you the best of luck. I also remind you that if you continue to DEFAME me in this PUBLIC forum, you will be faced with legal action. Hyper cheated me - I have PROOF. Paymerightnow is part of a possibly illegal scheme. These are the facts... Try and deny them.

You can trust these 2, or you can trust this webmaster that PAYS his members. The choice is yours.

By the way - I have nothing to do with the cash club - I'd LOVE to see you prove that one - INCREDIBLE LIE! I own GreenLetter and MailFest - do a DNS search you LIAR! I have never seen such dishonesty. I will be contacting a lawyer about you - you have crossed the line of defimation.

Enough said.

I've honestly never seen a banner connecting GreenLetter with TCC on the GL site . *shrugs*

Oh and GL has paid me 2 or 3 times , so I'm pretty active . I HAVE to try to keep up with my dl so I can get paid and visit the p2c section OFTEN .

I really never saw any such banner . Maybe I'm not very observant ????

Okay, since I have offered my help to Hyper, who by the way still has to get that information to me as they said they would. *wonders why the stalling there for*

And I have NOW had Greenletter ask me for help on this matter.

I am going to be investigating this. As many people know I do this quite a bit on this forum, so I think people should hold off calling people cheats and such until this has been checked out. Once I find the evidence I am needing, then I will be posting it in this thread.

Do people here agree on this? Or are you going to stay adament about Greenletter being a cheat without it being checked out independently?

Now I'm not defending GL here by making this statement.

But I have to agree with lexiekinz here, I have never seen one there myself.

*goes back to his preliminary investigating*

I'm not defending GL either . I'm just stating that I never noticed any such banner and I wouldn't make anything up .

I'd be very interested in your fact finding and will hold off on any opinion till then and maybe even beyond LOL!

I've never seen one either.

Oh yeah, I've been paid by GreenLetter and have just requested a second payment.

I'm not taking any sides here, but I checked Mark Dean's (aka TCC)account at f&e.
All his downline appears completely legit.
I have no "Will" in the system.
I do have a Willie, and several Williams. They are not in the downline or upline of TCC, and seem to have nothing in common with him.
Just an observance....

OH! BOY! This is going to be good reading,be right back going to get a Chicken Salad so I can read this with my Dinner.

This is one of the most interesting topics for a long time. I'll be watching this thread. Oh, and by the way, I did get paid by GreenLetter just a few days ago!

Oh by the way, when you made a mad dash and deleted The Cash Club banner from the Greenletter site, you forgot something. Your terms and conditions are still identical. You're not dealing with a stupid person here. Oh and you can try to change that too but I have already saved both of these entire websites on my hard drive.

Gotcha Again

Here is the first paragraph from his terms and conditions from both sites. Boy you and TCC sure do think alike

Greenletter

Terms and Conditions
By signing up and actively using the GreenLetter program you agree to all terms and conditions set forth in this agreement. GreenLetter may, at any time, choose to edit, add and/or delete portions of this agreement and impose changes without prior notification of its members. Members will be informed of any and all changes to this policy via an email to their primary contact email address provided upon signing up with GreenLetter. If any modification is unacceptable to you, your only recourse is to terminate this agreement. Your continued participation in the GreenLetter program following our posting of a change in policy notice or new agreement on our site will constitute binding acceptance to the change.

The Cash Club

Terms and Conditions
By signing up and actively using the TheCashClub program you agree to all terms and conditions set forth in this agreement. TheCashClub may, at any time, choose to edit, add and/or delete portions of this agreement and impose changes without prior notification of its members. Members will be informed of any and all changes to this policy via an email to their primary contact email address provided upon signing up with TheCashClub. If any modification is unacceptable to you, your only recourse is to terminate this agreement. Your continued participation in the TheCashClub program following our posting of a change in policy notice or new agreement on our site will constitute binding acceptance to the change.


Green Letter or TCC, whichever one it is today is a very deceptive person that is trying to act innocent. Don't believe a word he says.

Oh and another thing, don't you think it's sort of funny that I deleted TCCs account too but I haven't heard one single word from him??

Webmaster
Paymerightnow Paid2Read
http://www.paymerightnow.com/Paid2Read/index.html

ummmmmmm of course not taking sides just making an observation but a lot of sites have same tos.. most of them are generic in nature given to them by the script people.. then they confirm them to be what they need them to be for their site... not sure on these 2 sites only a member of tcc but that's the case in a lot of incidences..

I got paid from Will once and redeemed my earnings once for an ad and got around 35 referrals. Will and I also did an ad swap and he has been very prompt and professional in his dealings.

Also, as for the TOS, I thought the TOS is the same in all programs except for a few modifications here and there in payment, responsibility etc. **shrugs**

I checked the TOS of Email Traffic Kingdom (the top part which has been quoted from Green Letter and The Cash Club) and it is identical except for the line which says about china members

hmmmm I haven't seen one either--I click the links (earnings,advertising and etc.) every time I go to a site to see what banners are up yes I DO actually look at them as a matter of fact that's how I found lexie's site I've joined more than one program that way...call me crazy but it works for me the only one I joined that way and actually have quit is fillmyaccount (enuff said on THAT )

will be checking back....this could be better than the Young and the Restless

True.
All the common scripts come with generic copies of faqs and terms.
They all start out identical with a given script.
The site owner substitutes xxx.com with his/her real domain, and makes whatever other minor changes are needed to personalise them.
But essentially, they are the same word-for-word on numerous sites.

PMRN, sorry but I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Just because someone claims through a personal email that he's the owner of a site doesn't mean he really is the owner. Whoever that person is I think they lied to you. As a matter of fact that email you got from Mark Dean doesn't sound like it's from Will at all. I've contacted Will via email tons of times and he never signs his emails like that.
Personally I don't think Will's dishonest. I've done 2 sets of ad swaps with him and everything went great there. I even got lots of referrals on the sites he promoted for me. He immediately gave me re runs when something went wrong with one of the ads too.
I've been a member for close to 3 months now and, given that I work hard, do the PTC daily and got refs, I reached cashout within a month and was paid the next day. Since then I bought Gold membership at MailFest through my earnings at both sites, and am close to another cashout at GreenLetter.
I really can't complain, he's always been responsive and helpful with me.


shanay12003

I just wanted to ad my 2 cents (which as many of you know, I'm Canadian, so may only be 1 1/2 cents, but i'm still adding them )

I have dealt with Will several times, being a goldmember at greenletter from the beginning. I have done 5 ad swaps with him, cashed out twice (got paid today) and am close to cashing out a third time. I have also purchased ads with my earnings, and I have never had any problems with him at all.

I have to agree with Shanay and say that the email you received does NOT sound like any of the correspondence I've had with Will. After emailing someone many many times, you kinda get a feel of how they talk (or write) and it just doesn't sound like Will to me.

I will also be waiting to see if any proof of what you have claimed is found, but I highly doubt it.

Lisa

Another thing PaymerightnowAdmin, you have SPAMMED two other threads with the same post you started in this link.

Nor have you answered my first post I made in here.

That being that you agree to wait until I have finished my investigation, which I might add is a 1/3 of the way from being completed..

Hyper, I would also like that information from you if you are wanting me to help you.

I posted a not about HyPer and Dollars4 mail - she called me a cheat (yeah, right)

I can tell you right now... I know that u are a cheat! so does several other program owners, I don't have to prove anything the proof is there... also, U want the # to my attorney? Thats how scared I am on u... let me tell you a little secret, I could get u for theft alot quicker than u can for me supposedly deflaming you! The first time u asked for payout u got the payment, right or wrong? The u asked for another and then i really started checking into the accounts and then that is when i found the mess u created! Then a webmaster of a program that I didn't even know period, wrote in an email to all their members about a cheater that they had found, funny thing was when they mentioned your NAME, I contacted that person, no not PMRN, but a totally different webmaster, totally different person I had just joined and the program hadn't been up too long either, this webmaster was amazed that you could be so much of a cheat! Then PMRN webmaster posted about you cheating, I contacted her, then another one wrote me, so see it really don't matter if u think that I'm a liar, or whatever... there are alot of posts that complain about your silly practices, your so called threats, and believe me, better ppl than u has tried to intimadate me, and if they didn't even come close then I can promise you that u cant even come close! lol.. Oh BTW I didn't ask for help from your "friend" they wanted to see the addies, I don't pay attention to someone thats fake or see thru and believe me you are so appart that u maybe surprised just who can see thru all your big talk and little action... I did the right thing and not delete your account, but not pay u for the silly fake accounts that u placed into the program, yes I do have a script thats installed that tells me things that u wont ever know about your puter, software and yes even little things that u may not have no idea that I can get just from u loging into your account or surfing the site... remember I'm not just some beginner webmaster, I'm a professional programmer and believe me u couldn't hold a candle to what I can do if I decided too, although, before u make a huge stickpile about what I just said, let me make this perfectly clear to everyone reading this! I do not care about your personal web habits, or info like your CC or things of that nature, I just want to know that my members are who they say they are, I do NOT place spyware or any type of things like that on Dollars4emails.com period! I don't have too... I can find out about ppls servers just like all the others do just by the info given in all the programs! Spying on ppl isn't my thrill nor does it interest me in the least! However, I do demand honesty from my members as most are, but there are some that tries to intimadate others that hasn't learned to be distrustful and that is what YOU do whoever u are... I didn't delete your account and I won't, but your empty threats is just that and believe me I won't lose sleep over it nor will it even cross my mind again except to laugh good and hard at u defending your stupid actions... believe me I survivied before u and I know that I shall after u have been totally found out... u are not a threat to me, so if u want my attorneys # just let me know... u can talk with him if u think u can hurt me period!

First of all, I had never heard of this message board until I sent out an email to my members to update them on the cheating situation ( and I didn't name names) Hyper happen to be one of my members and she emailed me about cheaters that she has had problems with and your name was at the top of her list.

We corresponded a few more times because we had something in common (YOU!) and then she sent me the link to this message board.

Second Your 13,000 probably consists of accounts that you've created, You've already proved that you are capable of this.

Thirdly, you can only be sued for slander if the accusations are untrue, we now all know the answer to this.

One last thing, My site has only been up for less than 1 month, I haven't even had my first pay date yet, I guarantee you my honest members will be paid on time. Even if I have to make sacrifices in order to do so.

Also, I had 3600 Members before I deleted the likes of you, now I only have less than 3,000. I would rather have 100 honest members than 13,000 members like you.

with that said, I'm finished with it.

LV Jones
Webmaster
Paymerightnow Paid2Read

Ok here is LuckyEarners Terms and Conditions

By signing up and actively using the LuckyEarners program you agree to all terms and conditions set forth in this agreement. LuckyEarners may, at any time, choose to edit, add and/or delete portions of this agreement and impose changes without prior notification of its members. Members will be informed of any and all changes to this policy via an email to their primary contact email address provided upon signing up with LuckyEarners. If any modification is unacceptable to you, your only recourse is to terminate this agreement. Your continued participation in the LuckyEarners program following our posting of a change in policy notice or new agreement on our site will constitute binding acceptance to the change.

and WishForMoney's Terms and Conditions

By signing up and actively using the WishForMoney program you agree to all terms and conditions set forth in this agreement. WishForMoney may, at any time, choose to edit, add and/or delete portions of this agreement and impose changes without prior notification of its members. Members will be informed of any and all changes to this policy via an email to their primary contact email address provided upon signing up with WishForMoney. If any modification is unacceptable to you, your only recourse is to terminate this agreement. Your continued participation in the WishForMoney program following our posting of a change in policy notice or new agreement on our site will constitute binding acceptance to the change.

and MikesPaid4Email Terms and Conditions

By signing up and actively using the MikesPaid4Email.com program you agree to all terms and conditions set forth in this agreement. MikesPaid4Email.com may, at any time, choose to edit, add and/or delete portions of this agreement and impose changes without prior notification of its members. Members will be informed of any and all changes to this policy via an email to their primary contact email address provided upon signing up with MikesPaid4Email.com. If any modification is unacceptable to you, your only recourse is to terminate this agreement. Your continued participation in the MikesPaid4Email.com program following our posting of a change in policy notice or new agreement on our site will constitute binding acceptance to the change.

OH! I had to add this one,I couldn't HELP myself Dollars4Email Terms and Conditions

By signing up and actively using the Dollars4Email program you MUST agree to all terms & conditions set forth in this agreement. Dollars4Email may, at any time, choose to edit, add and/or delete portions of this agreement & impose changes without prior notification of its members. Members will be informed of any and all changes to this policy via an email to their primary contact email address provided upon signing up with Dollars4Email. If any modification is unacceptable to you, your only recourse is to terminate this agreement. Your continued participation in the dollars4Email program following our posting of a change in policy notice or new agreement on our site will constitute binding acceptance to the change.



OK! I can go on all night,about 97% of these sites have the same Terms and Conditions. And none of these site have anything to do with each other

Disclaimer: LuckyEarners, WishForMoney, MikesPaid4Email and Dollars4Email, There is no complaint here I am just useing your site's Terms and Conditions.

PaymerightnowAdmin: I am going to offer the same assistance that I am offering Hyper.

IF you want to prove he is cheating, instead of making it harder for yourself by making claims like you are, then I can help.

If you are interested then pm me. Otherwise I can offer this one piece of advise.

That being this, dont try and go on things such as website design and such being the same, specially considering just about every site that is out there is identical in some way shape or form. ######, I saw a site the other day, one which I might add has been open for over 2 months, still have "Yoursitename" within it's terms. I cant rem what site it was.

Hyper, excuse me. But you CAME TO ME after I offered publically.

I didnt approach you at all, you came to me asking for help.

As to Will being my friend, I hate to tell you, I dont know him from a bar of soap except for him being a WM of a site, which you seem to be defaming. He has paid me once already, and upgraded me to gold.

He is a webmaster that I have found to be quite honest, yes I think he is honest, considering for him to be dishonest he wouldnt be paying paypal from a VALID paypal account.

You have failed to provide the evidence I asked for, you call me a fake, if I am a fake, then what are you. Someone who I might add has how many email addresses?

You also say I am believing GL, well, look at it this way Hyper, you have FAILED to provide evidence to the contrary. There have been other WM's that have posted in this thread that have pointed out that there is little evidence pointing to the fact that GL is a cheat.

Oh, lets add something else. He USES AOL

Hang on a tick, how is that significant. Gee, is it because they use a PROXY server which makes it look like EVERYONE that uses AOL to be the same person. Ooo, lets jump and go on IP addresses and ban all those that sign up with the same IP. Whoopsy, we just deleted half that AOL users that signed up on the same day.


PS: I still have ALL corresponding PM's from Hyper.

I'm just rereading over this again, specially considering I just did my usual nightly email check.

Now I will comment on this here:



From what you are talking about, it looked like YOU SAW a TCC banner there and have INSTANTLY assumed that TCC and GL are one and the same. What you saw was someone's banner on the rotator. Did you both to click on the banner to see who's referal ID was under it, because something is telling me you havent done that.


Oh and just so people know. I have contacted Mark Dean (Who lives in Ohio I might add, that verified by ebay, whitepages.com AND domain reg info) of TCC to post here, that will probably take place sometime in the next 24 hours.

I'm just gonna sit this out and let the truth present itself as I know it will. I'm tired of these childish games. I make my income from my 2 sites - cash club banner is a PAID banner on my site by the way - and it's still in rotation.

Oh, and Hyper - defamation lawsuits can get very expensive - I suggest you just shut up for now - let Jaikula do whatever investigating can be done. I'm not afraid, why are you? And no, I do not even know Jaikula, but I appreciate his help...

I am replying to a request by Jaikula...from my personal AOL account.

All the contact I have had with Will has been very professional and positive. I have had some questions and he has always replied in a professional manner. I have requested payout and feel confident that it will be received in good order. I understand that accounts have to be checked to be fair to all.

I also understand that cheating in all walks of life is a major problem. But from experiences with another site, where almost everyone was called a cheater, myself included with no proof and saying that everyone emailed wanting to be paid, when I know I did not, that sometimes people jump in with both feet and need to step back before jumping. I use a dial up modem and my IP address changes every time I log on. I have read that some ISP such as AOL all have the same IP address, don't know from sure but, if it is that means that all people using AOL regardless of email address would be called cheaters, and not necessarily so.

I try always to believe that best in people until they prove me wrong.

Hey all of you who don`t take sides.
I will take one, I think Will is very honest, and I have reached payout with only 16 referals.
Got paid also

So I am with Will

Also tons of sites have very simular TOS, FAQ & PRIVACY generated by script creaters.

A little suggestion to hyper and PMRNA , if you don't mind -- You seem to be satisfied with your own findings the way they are , but if you truely want to protect others by putting them into the "know" as well ( that was the reason for the post eh ?) aide the investigation and provide the information to the investigating member . If you don't and the findings are not in your favor , then you are still the ONLY ppl convinced .

What's the worse that can happen to you personally ? You could find that it was just a huge misunderstanding ?? You might feel a little silly if that turns out to be the case , but I'm sure that fences can be mended . If you don't help , then that's going to raise lots of questions too , and not so much in your favor . Make sense ?

Thanks Hristro... The truth shall come out in the end, and there will be some people with egg on their face, and a lawsuit at their door.

with all programs you have to watch for cheaters. And not all cheaters cheat all the time.. I know from my site that yeah i have a few that keep signing up after i delete them and i know they cheat.. i have gotten ip addys and names from a few different owners bout ones they have caught.. sometimes on my site they are honest and other times they arent..

Ok so say greenletter did cheat ( not saying you did will) thats 2 sites. so far now if he is a member of say 10 other sites to and hes honest not all owners should delete him.. All owners have to go by there own site..

so basically what im saying is that if owners share cheater lists dont asume they are gonna cheat you till you catch them... Just put them on the watch list.. after a month if nothing then maybe they changed.. who knows..

BUT this forum is getting so bad with this person done that this person done this.. If members are going to complain bout losing 5 dollars and if owners wont pay the money owed then maybe we all need to take a class in respect and people skills.. Does running to the forum screaming cheat or scam really accomplish anything but awhole mess of drama..

I know my sites not perfect and i know some members will complain bout something.. Heck i had one say i sent to many links...lol but i show them respect and then they show me respect.. Cant problems be worked out with talking not bashing...

So everyone needs to just sit back relax and think
is this how i want ppl to remember me here???

Ive seen complaint bout probably every PTR or surf site ever launched...

I know someone will have something bad to say bout what i stated but im not going to come back and bash anyone.. For me thats high school stuff and well ive been out of hs for like 4 years and i just dont have the energy or want to deal with that..

Ok im going back into my little corner of the PTR world...lol
its a nice happy place full of happy joy joy people

I think it's a matter of neither of them wanting to admit they have wronged Greenletter. But I am starting to think about posting the pm's send to me, with my replies back to them, that was between Hyper and myself. Specially if Hyper doesnt come forth with this evidence as has been asked.

Now, I have gotten a reply back from Greenletter as he has indicated in this thread, I am still waiting on Mark Dean's reply.

Oh, and so people know. Once I have the reply email from Mark Dean I will be posting both headers of the emails here, along with the links to spamcop reports, then I will be having this thread LOCKED by either Tipsy or zOla. Hopefully Mark Dean has seen my email and posted here. IF anyone can contact him via email or other means, and have him reply back to the email I sent with the subject 'This is serious' it will speed this up.

This is too insane calling GreenLetter a cheat. First they offered zero proof.
Anybody can type garbage defaming another.

Anybody want to bet that its a couple of people with axes to grind, out for revenge. Why? Who knows!!

Accounts deleted for cheating? Envy?

You don't get thousands of active members by being a cheater.

That is the thing.

Hyper complained about him before, I offered my help to Hyper, got ZERO reply about it.

The evidence that was posted here was also lacking proof to start with, if you read this here:



Now, take note, that's an automated responce. He probably gets 100s of emails a week asking the same question so has quite possibly setup an automated system on it telling it to look for set phrases and such and to send the automated reply back.


Oh, and the person that started this thread uses a dialup ISP (attbi.com). Now tell me, who else on here uses that ISP. I bet you anything I can find at least 2 others that use that ISP. And before anyone says that I did any hacking to get that information, think again, I simply emailed him and got said information from headers.

Oh, and the host he emails through is untrusted when it comes to relaying:



207.44.248.30 is rs1.securednshost.com

Auto response ? Not even sure it's an e-mail period .

I know... no header proof at all.

As to Hyper claiming she contacted another WM in reguards to this, I also find that hard to believe. Specially since the only other WM that seems to be discussing it here just happens to be the one that started this post. I would like to see that other WM come here and post PROOF.

hi i'm no paid to read guru but i do know a bit about the internet
having been building sites and stufff for years ..

and i see NO proof that these two sites are "cheaters"
i see TOS that are like others said those "standard" things that everyone
has on their site

(having put up one of the sites with those tos on them does that mean they own mine too??)

and the ip addresses ..

try using an ip locator if its aol you will find that a pile of your members must be the same person over
time .. in any event you don't make sense..

as for this forum i also agree its enough to scare the pants off of people it scares me and that
is why i keep my keyboard shut

i am to the point that even if i meet all the requirements i will never post a link or add for
people because of the cheaters, scammers and hackers here be they REAL OR FICTICIOUS
its not worth the risk ..

see you

OMG! are we that intimidating at this forum? May I make a suggestion ummax that you remove your e-mail address out of your signature.

I would like to clear some things up.

First of all, What I said about the email was a mistake. My husband actually sent this email in error to TCC. so the response that was received was from TCC. I hadn't seen the entire email, I only saw the response because my husband forwarded the response only to me.

I sincerely apologize for this error.

Also, it may have been an ad banner that I saw for TCC on your site, but every time I've come to your site it was the banner that was on display. I guess it's just coincedence that on his site, your banner is always being displayed.

This does not change the fact that a very large % of your signups are bogus. I've been watching your account since about 4/6, that's when I deleted so many other accounts for obvious cheating. I had grown to like and appreciate you for the help that you have given me during the startup of my program.

The last thing I wanted to believe is that you would try to cheat me before I have even earned a single cent in profit. So I kept your account open. I wanted to be positive before I took any action. This is the only reason that I have gone to such great lengths to find out the truth.

You may not have tried to cheat any other program and I cannot speak for them, but My program was offering a flat 25 cents per referral and I guess it was too tempting for you to pass up.

Since this situation has come about I have been contacted by several other webmasters with the same problem with you. All of which are new to the business and are too afraid to speak out.

I on the other hand am not!

If I were the scam artist that you say I am, I never would have paid you in the first place. I trusted you and you took advantage of the fact that I was new and overly kind. I have bent over backwards to make sure that my members are happy. It's just a shame that there are some that take kindness for weakness.

My suspicion about You and TCC either being the same person or Possibly working together started as a result of the similarities between your correspondence and his. both demanding payment prior to the payout date etc.

Like you said The Truth will eventually come to the light.

LV Jones
Webmaster
Paymerightnow Paid2REad

I again, as I have been asking, ask for you to send me evidence of these signups.

If you want my help in clearing this matter up, something which I might add Hyper is unwilling to do, then please pm me.

But right now, without this evidence to show any sort of proof that Will has cheated, your accusation is unfounded.

Also, I will point out that I was approached by Will, as I indicated in my first post within this thread, to sort this matter out, which therefore brings the matter to the concerns of the privacy terms within relative sites. It doesnt breach them, why doesnt it, the person who is being accused has asked an advocate to look at this evidence of him having 'signed' up multiple times. So giving out such evidence doesnt breach privacy. Will can post here to back it up.

So again, I ask for BOTH Hyper and PaymerightnowAdmin to email this evidence, that being fake email addresses and the IP's used in the signup of these accounts. I also ask ANY other WM's that have had this happening to them by the accused to also email the information to me. This information can be sent to me on this email address: xvw6ij902@sneakemail.com

This will get to me so you dont have to worry about that, just publishing a working email address on here, attracks a lot of spam.

I Doubt Mark Dean will be contacting you, I have several emails to prove he is a cheater here are a couple of them.

I received this email from a lady that was supposed to be in his downline on the 28th

Return-path: <Kkimsisk@aol.com>
Envelope-to: webmaster@paymerightnow.com
Delivery-date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:27:10 -0500
Received: from imo-r08.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.104])
by rs1.securednshost.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1)
id 19AEHO-0006pA-00
for webmaster@paymerightnow.com; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:27:10 -0500
Received: from Kkimsisk@aol.com
by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id k.1a9.13d860ee (30950)
for <webmaster@paymerightnow.com>; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:26:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kkimsisk@aol.com
Message-ID: <1a9.13d860ee.2bdeda7e@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:26:54 EDT
Subject: Re: Important Site Information - Please Read
To: webmaster@paymerightnow.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1a9.13d860ee.2bdeda7e_boundary"
X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011

I do not have a membership...please stop further emails!!!


From: <webmaster@paymerightnow.com>
To: <Kkimsisk@aol.com>
References: <1a9.13d860ee.2bdeda7e@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Important Site Information - Please Read
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:38:41 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AF_01C30D83.196174C0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106

I'm really sorry to bother you but I have an account set up with your email address,could I please have just a moment of your time? I would like to find out if the person that is taking credit for referring you is cheating.

did you ever have an account with Paymerightnow Paid2Read?

This is the account information I have for you, does any of this look familiar?

First Name
Kim

Last Name
Sisk

Email Address
kkimsisk@aol.com

Verify Email Address
kkimsisk@aol.com

User ID
KimSisk

Password
douglas

Referred by
TCC - Real name for this person is listed as Mark Dean

This guy is the webmaster for a program called the cash club, are you a member of this program by chance? if so that may explain where he got your information.

Paypal Address
kkimsisk@aol.com

I would appreciate any help at all you can give with this matter. I will delete this account and you won't be receiving any further mailings from me.

Thanks

LV Jones
Webmaster
Paymerightnow.com

Return-path: <Kkimsisk@aol.com>
Envelope-to: webmaster@paymerightnow.com
Delivery-date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:59:54 -0500
Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.37])
by rs1.securednshost.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1)
id 19AEn4-0008G4-00
for webmaster@paymerightnow.com; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:59:54 -0500
Received: from Kkimsisk@aol.com
by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.22.) id k.1dc.8817b8c (30950)
for <webmaster@paymerightnow.com>; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:59:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kkimsisk@aol.com
Message-ID: <1dc.8817b8c.2bdee215@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:59:17 EDT
Subject: Re: Important Site Information - Please Read
To: webmaster@paymerightnow.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1dc.8817b8c.2bdee215_boundary"
X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6011

I'm not sure what your talking about...but it sounds to me like he's full of it, I have no idea who he is....is this a buisness?

From: <webmaster@paymerightnow.com>
To: <Kkimsisk@aol.com>
References: <1dc.8817b8c.2bdee215@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Important Site Information - Please Read
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:04:31 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0104_01C30D86.B569E2A0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106

I have a program called a "paid to read" site, I take in advertising revenues from advertising to a list of members that have opted to receive advertisements via email for pay.

My Members are paid to read the messages that I send and are also paid for each new member they refer to the program.

Lately I have had a lot of problems with cheaters that obtain email addresses from whatever source their using and then use them to sign up for accounts using their own referral links so that they get paid for the referral.

I've had angry people emailing and threatening to report me for spam because of this.

I've been working really hard to get rid of the cheaters because It's a real headache.

I just pulled up a list of 15 members that were signed up from the same IP address that you were, I will be emailing all of them to find out if they actually signed up.

Thanks again for your help.

LV Jones
Webmaster
Paymerightnow Paid2Read



This is a response that I got back when emailing to his downline

Return-path: <fireface100@softhome.net>
Envelope-to: admin@paymerightnow.com
Delivery-date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:28:52 -0500
Received: from jive.softhome.net ([66.54.152.27])
by rs1.securednshost.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1)
id 19AIzL-0000BO-00
for admin@paymerightnow.com; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:28:51 -0500
Received: (qmail 7060 invoked by uid 417); 29 Apr 2003 00:28:44 -0000
Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12)
by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 29 Apr 2003 00:28:44 -0000
Received: from 2nd-computer.softhome.net ([24.42.51.87])
(AUTH: LOGIN fireface100@softhome.net)
by softhome.net with esmtp; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:28:41 -0600
Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030427202630.00a01630@mail.spamarrest.com>
X-Sender: fireface100@mail.spamarrest.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:27:17 -0700
To: admin@paymerightnow.com
From: Eric Shaw <fireface100@softhome.net>
Subject: Re: Your Help Needed
In-Reply-To: <04a001c30dd2$dacbfa00$0200a8c0@ellev>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_jive-6876-1051576124-0001-2"

stop sending me spam ###### 03:09 PM 28/04/03 -0700, you wrote:

Hi, My name is LV Jones

I'm the webmaster of the Paymerightnow Paid2Read program, I have an account set up under your email address. I have had a lot of trouble with cheaters signing up members without their knowledge and collecting refferal bonuses for them. I've been receiving a rash of emails from angry people claiming not to have signed up for the program. I just wanted to verify that you actually signed up for the program.

Please reply to this email with your answer

Thank you very much for your assistance.

LV Jones
Webmaster
Paymerightnow

Here's another one

Return-path: <smj212s@smsu.edu>
Envelope-to: webmaster@paymerightnow.com
Delivery-date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:30:03 -0500
Received: from onyx.smsu.edu ([146.7.7.13] helo=onyx.SPRINGFIELD.SMSU.EDU)
by server105.anhosting.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1)
id 199GO2-0001Po-00
for webmaster@paymerightnow.com; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:30:02 -0500
Received: from OBSIDIAN.SPRINGFIELD.SMSU.EDU ([146.7.7.12]) by onyx.SPRINGFIELD.SMSU.EDU with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329);
Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:29:35 -0500
Received: from caliber ([146.7.7.39]) by OBSIDIAN.SPRINGFIELD.SMSU.EDU with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329);
Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:29:35 -0500
X-WebMail-UserID: smj212s
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:05:54 -0500
Sender: Scott Johnson <smj212s@smsu.edu>
From: Scott Johnson <smj212s@smsu.edu>
To: "Paymerightnow Paid2Read" <webmaster@paymerightnow.com>
X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002276
Subject: READ THIS NOW
Message-ID: <3EAA1D2D@caliber>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61.08
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Apr 2003 03:29:35.0174 (UTC) FILETIME=[0F0FC660:01C30BA4]

STOP EMAILING ME OR I WILL REPORT YOU AS SPAM



Here's the email where he was trying to get me to tell him how many more referrals he needed to win the referral contest.

Hi Mark, how's it going?

It wouldn't be a fair contest if I reveal that information to you, all I'll say is that he has over 100 now. I would love to have the extra sign-ups but I want the contest winner to win fair and square, I hope you understand and I appreciate all your efforts.

LV
Webmaster
----- Original Message -----
From: Markddean@cs.com
To: webmaster@paymerightnow.com
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: PMRN PAID EMAIL


Hi, it is Mark how many referrals am I behind the first place person? I have purchased 100 sign ups to any program. I will use them if that puts me way ahead, but if not I will just sell them, Thanks

Thanks, Mark Dean
Webmaster

Did you get your Pop Up, or Pop Under to start earning that extra revenue? get it now,
http://paypopup.com/pubsignup.php?ref=TCC

www.TheCashClub.com
www.HitzDeliver.com
www.Markssearch.com
www.ezstore.org/markddean





If he owns a successful ptr program, why would he have to buy referrals. I don't even have the room to put all the delivery failure notices from the other members in his downline.
The only person that has anything to gain by having numerous signups under him regardless of the quality of the referral is him.

I most certainly don't benefit by people threatening to report me for spam.


I was going to send Will a spreadsheet of all the duplicate accounts, bogus accounts and multiple Ip addresses but because of the number of them it was too hard to copy the information into a spread sheet. besides that I didn't want him having the information of the people that have signed up and had valid accounts. It was just too hard to separate them. I did however send him a list of accounts that all had the same IP address as the one he signed up under, this wasn't actual proof because most were AOL addresses.

Will's account was almost identical to TCC's when it comes to bogus referrals. this may not be of any fault of their own depending on where they are getting their signups from. Maybe they purchased these bad signups but at any rate. I cannot afford to pay for referrals that are invalid.

paymerightnowAdmin

I did not "Purchase" any referrals - mine came from hard work including sending referral emails to my members, banners on my site and I also had a paid to signup banner for your dollars4email on my site.

Your smear campaign is getting a little tedious. I do not buy referrals. I sell them for Greenletter, when I have an excess of no upline members - thats as close as I get.

I want to thank everyone who has said such kind things about me here - they know me. I'd also like to thank Jaikula for all the hard work so far - it's appreciated.

Now that everyone has seen what a soap opera this has become...lol... why not go to thew GreenLetter referral thread and take a walk on the wildside - join GreenLetter - you are welcome, and we don't cheat you out of what you earn :-) ....

WILL

You know it's rather interesting that you post his email message WITHOUT the headers.

POST THE HEADERS PLEASE!

Now I dont mean to yell, but frankly as Greenletter has said, it's a smear campaign and that is all I can see is happening. If you want a smear campaign how about we take it over to the boycott forum and see how long you last.

You havent sent the information I asked for, which is making me VERY suspicious of both Hyper and yourself. Produce evidence.

Also, posting people's passwords on here and such information is a breach of privacy. I wonder if they are aware that you produced their email address and other such information on a public forum.

I never said you buy referrals, I only said that maybe where you are getting your referrals from may have something to do with the problem. TCC has admitted to purchasing referrals.

I dont know what difference this makes because no matter what, you are going to believe what you want to believe. but here is the header you requested.

From: <webmaster@paymerightnow.com>
To: <Markddean@cs.com>
References: <d3.1b0680bf.2bc0bbb7@cs.com>
Subject: Re: PMRN PAID EMAIL
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 16:14:39 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0169_01C2FB8E.75549340"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106

As a complete novice - and without wishing to take sides here ............... I actually found it strange that this "person" that PayMeRightNow(?) wrote to jumped immediately on the S P A M tack.

Any normal person - well, me anyway - might have been more curious to know who was using my information, or at least purporting to be me, and not scream the canned meat possibility.

Just my tuppence worth (yesssssss ... I'm pre-decimal)