BUT, if you only search for things you are really interested in, it's a good thing, no? I'm not in the market for Viagra but there are some things I'm interested in and with the Holidays nearing, I'll be shopping. So then no one gets hurt. I think. (The drawback to this is that I rarely get hits for what I'm looking for. And, I really hate it when the results are just more search engines.)

Sorry to disagree with you here MO. So the person I bought something from last week using a search engine does not welcome my click because I clicked on it from a ptr site?

Always? That's pretty broad and unfair. I know I've used this example b4 (tho the proliferation of the site has grown since the last time I used it) but...
A friend of mine was looking for a table lamp for her daughter's room...She found this GREAT site, thru a PTR search and shared it with myself and another friend.
I found THE perfect lamp that I KNOW my daughter is going to go gaga over. The link is saved for a christmas purchase. I've since given the linkt o my best friend out west who PURCHASED 2 lamps...one for her son, one for her mother in law.
2 of her friends from the neighbourhood have also purchased.

Now, my friend wasn't even LOOKING for a lamp..the kid had one but the one she found, she fell in love with.

So I see 4 purchases, from that advertised site that would have NEVER happened if not for the origianl person clicking a ptr link and searching.

While this is obvioulsy not a normal situation, it DOES happen that people purchase from their PTR induced clicks.

While YOU may not want the clicks, I'm pretty sure the lamp store was more than happy that their advertising results.

Advertising in any medium is a risk. You can shove Coke ads at me until your ad budget is completely depleted, it is NOT going to make me drink the stuff. The folks that send my flyers to reroof where I live are wasting ther $, I don't own it. The guy paid by the hour to sell newspapers is also being paid for nothing, I'm not buying. THAT is how advertising works. I won't even get into product recognition and the other reasons to use PPC.

I'm not quite sure why PPC should be different that the rest of the ad world.

Attempting to stop, or at least reduce, the PTRs that are forcing or giving incentive for blind searches should be supported and encouraged. Not belittled.

I'd be interested in the type of product you sell that the "average ptr" person wouldn't be interested in.
Something for nuclear physicists? Brain surgeons? Continuing education post PhD?

Then again, not likely that any of those wouldbe something the average person would be searching for even from a ptr link.

Search or don't search, the choice should be yours. The same as whether to choose to click the link in the forst place, even if you know you won't search.

From my own research, there is a MUCH larger amount of competitor fraud clicks than PTR ones, add in bot clicks and folks trying to stop forced, incetive searches and ptr fraud becomes small in the scope of things.

Vetrans know they don't have to search, it's the newbies that need this info and this new fad of secret clubs in ptr are not helping with that understanding and need to be stopped.

Well, you've got the 'good argument', flies nicely too, here in gpf, but I'd be a bit 'selective' on the forums you Post that to, lol.

Most ALL ppc Advertisers I've Ever Spoken to, have the smarts to Know, that ptr traffic, is Garbage, they refer to this forum as click fraud forum, you Don't want to visit these places, lol.

If you Really Want to 'Support' ppc advertisers, I think you need to familiarize yourself with 'Known cr's'.

5 to 30% is common on Overture, so from 1 in 20 clicks, to 1 in 3 clicks, results in a sale/conversion.
2nd tier, before ptr, was around 1 to 5 %, so at Worse, 1 in 100 clicks, results in a sale/conversion.

If you can Maintain that 'natural ppc environment' roi, with ptr clicks, then you should sleep quite nicely at night, imho. You would Be, for the record, a Unique ptr clicker, in my Experience.

I can do a steady 11.5% on One GoClick Campaign. But That's Not including the traffic that comes up from the engines I Know for a Fact to be ptr se's. If I calculate Those hits into the cr, it drops to .3%, so I don't bother to run it anymore, GoClick just changed partners again, and I'm pretty sure they hooked up with Kannoodle again, so it's ptr Garbage Again, God only knows, for how many months. All I can do is Wait... Continuing to Advertise, is financial Suicide, lol.

NO, 'You', are Not the Problem. Sad Truth is, you are in such a tiny Minority, that you simply don't show up in our stats, as an indicator that ptr run se's warrent any consideration above Target Practice.

MO.

So what is it that you sell?

MO you ask if I supported you helping. Is telling new people that all traffic from ptr's is crapola your way of helping? when the whole jest of this discussion is about educating them?

I realize how you feel but as pittr commented I believe ptr and search engines could coexist if people would try to stop cheating the system, but that goes for regular advertising as well. I believe we could have real advertisers if members would quit trying to cheat the system as well. So this is not a matter of just search engiines for me.

I believe everyone could be happy if search ads were sent out and used like they were suppose to be. I know I hear the search advertisers saying they want results, so do the regular advertisers, so do the members sending out for referrals, so do ptp advertisers. I mean don't we all want to see some kind of results. Our product sold, a new referral, earning some money off something we promoted? But the issue here is cheats again. This could go right along with my rant on cheaters last week.

These sites who are forum elite groups, forcing searches, banning members for not doing them, not paying them for not doing them are going against every search engines terms of service. I don't believe it is good for anyone.

But I dont believe clickbots, cheaters, blind clickers and those trying to find anyway they can to cheat a program or steal from their members is a good thing either.

I do believe search ads can work in ptr. They may not make the money they want to make but do we ever always make a sale off something we promote.

I feel you are very closed minded at times and categorize everyone cause you believe everyone who clicks a search link is cheating the system and the advertiser and this is not true.

Correct.

It's Faaaaaar Cheaper for ppc Advertisers to Lose your Sale P.

You look at the Problem, from the Chair of one of the Very Few, that does Legetimate Searches at ptr sites. WE, Look at our STATS. Big Dif.

We Are, sadly, Better Off without your sale, if you Take the Rest of ptr With you, when you go. That's the Reality, and the Stats Prove it.

Now Mind You, there are a TON of bots, and Other garbage clicks, some days, ptr isn't a factor worth considering. Other Days, well, ptr is a Killer, you simply Cannot afford to Run the campaigns, they'll burn it as fast as you lug it home from the bank, lol.

MO.

Well please tell me your product you sell on ppc and I will make sure I never click a link for your site cause god forbid I sure would not want to buy from someone who treated a customer like you do.

Oh I am going to shut up before I say something that I will regret saying. It is really sad to see such insolence.

I Beleive that 90%+ of ALL ptr clicks on search engines, are 'support' clicks, so the ptr advertiser will come back, and my Stats Back this to the Hilt.

I'm no big spender, especially now that I don't earn much at ptr, since I stopped the se sites myself. But I can Tell you This. ptr traffic, does Rarely Convert.

CR, is a Known. It's a Known, as Long as the traffic is consistant. And the flow from engines I Know for a Fact to be ptr run engines, is JUNK. That's what I know, as that's what my stats tell me.

Countless, and I AM talking Dozens of Instances, I've Seen ppc advertisers Post that kanoodle burned 50 bucks in Under 24 hrs Flat, and They Posted 3 to 5 Search Engines, that sent the traffic to kanoodle to their bids. Find them in gpf dl builders, and what does that tell you ?

Yes Pitts, it's Wrong of me to tar Every clicker, with the same brush, there are a Tiny Handful, that do better. They are a Desperate minority.

MO.

I'm afraid you've missed what I've been trying to say here.
If I Did as you Ask, I'd be Losing one of Very Few Potential sales there ARE, in ptr ppc clicks, while the Other Thousands clicking to 'support the advertiser' would Continue to Chew my budget to shreads, hence the reason I suggest your sale, is not a factor here, THEY make me Lose my shirt, before YOU get out of bed in the morning. You Cannot 'Counter' them, you are simply Tooooooo Out-Numbered.

MO.

So what is it madmeikal that you sell? Maybe you missed that question earlier.

no, I saw the ? earlier.

MO.

Did you not say that you were much better off without the "purchasing" clicks from pittr?
So why are you afraid to name your site for fear of losing a sale from priestes.??


The rest has nothing to do with priestes post.

I happen to agree that searching is a rip off ( valid or invalid) and I think it is the problem of the engines as well as the gptr and the members.

The se's send me to another search end..who sends me etc. etc..
My solution to that is to use google.

Then the sites and the members are all wrapped up in whether the search is forced or freely done.

Does it really matter??

We all know that every site owner wants us to click that link and if we dont..well the odds are pretty good that there will be no money.

The members also know this and many of us slam the sites for TELLING us that they are going to pay for valid clicks.

We report them and say how we wont do it.."because its wrong"..but its ok to keep clicking on search links and pretend that we are really looking for things of dire importance.

That way we can feel better about ourselves and can keep the attention off the real problem while we bash the ###### out of those terrible incentivizers.

I may be way off base but iMO..it seems to be almost an insult for everyone to pretend that the problem is all wrapped up in the word "incentivised".

The thing that I find the most ridiculous about being told that they will pay me is not that it is against se rules but wondering..Do they think I am too stupid to KNOW THAT.

I have no idea what the answer is for others..For me..it is search when I REALLY have something to look for ( usually tops 3-4 x a week)and the first time I dont get it by a gpt se..I move on to google.

OK..Now I have put my foot in it..aqnd as I said..I could be wrong.

I'm listening for anyone to tell me how.

Thanks

Belle

Well appears that you chose not to answer then. Whats the problem .... I can understand not wanting to name your site.... but a product...?

I get it. He knows he's ticked off some people and he doesn't want to take the chance of revealing his product because he fears some people just to be spiteful, like that's a new thing on this forum, might click on any Search term similar to his in hopes of hurting him even a little bit.

Well Yeah, rofl, that Did cross my mind a Couple of times, when I was going to give Mystical2000 a Decent Answer to a simple question.
And it's not just Me that would suffer. They wouldn't 'know' if it was My site or someone Elses, some I've ran direct to merchant, so the Other advertisers would get stung as well.

To Mystical2000:

I've toyed with about 9 different thingys on ppc.
if you must know, 'signups' related, and electronics hard sales mostly. oh yeah, and a hosting thingy, but I wasn't very savy on that one, lol, the others treated me pretty well, considering all.
My ppc traffic, is 'relatively' Extremely Low, as I deliberately filter out the ptr traffic as much as I can. GoClick recently re-partnered again, so I'm outta biz again for a while though.
Sorry, that's all I'm willing to share here.

MO.

Thats fine I can understand the reason now..... Never really thought of people being that spiteful.... but honestly with the way people report paypal accounts and etc.... that does seem to be a justified fear.

About searching..... I guess I'm in the minority...cause mostly if I am going to search its something that I want or need.... Or just looking for information. And yes I have purchased things that I bought through search portals....... maybe its not enough to make up for the bad clicks..... but it is something and really shouldnt be discounted as nothing.

My personal policy on search engline links is simple:

If the ad is clearly labelled as a search then if I want to search for something I click it. If I'm not interested in searching for something I don't click it.

If an ad is not labelled as a search but directs me to a search engine, I never do a search even if I am looking for something.

I never click links in ads that try to tell me that I have to search or threaten me in any way. I am not interested in supporting this type of advertising.


If everyone followed this approach then I think that the SE traffic from PTRs would be a lot better and the forced click sites would be out of business. But I don't think that this is going to happen as there are too many people who are just looking for easy money.

As far as the CR from my SE clicks goes, while I would prefer to support the PPC advertisers, the searches often don't produce very useful results for me, so I end up finding what I want from Google.

Mystical, what you are Missing here is that a PPC Advertiser Cannot Get AT your Purchase.
That's what I'm trying to say here. In Order for the ppc advertiser, to Gain Access, to YOUR Click, They Have To Provide Access, to the Sites Listed in This Thread, which, Alone, would Kill any profit from Your Purchase, and that's Not Even to Mention, the Hundreds of clickers, accross Hundreds of ptr sites, that Are Searching, for the Sole Purpose of 'supporting the advertiser'.

Yes, we Want Your Money.
No, we Cannot Afford to Get At It.

I do Not intend that as an Insult to You, nor Anyone in this Forum.
I Intend that, to be Representative of the Facts.
The Facts, are Not favorable to ptr, so MO comes accross as Being 'against' Everyone, and proclaiming one Doing something Decent, as doing something Wrong.

The Problem here, is that the Feeds Continue to HIDE the ptr traffic from their Advertisers. Sure there are a handful of us, probably only in the very low thousands, that are Aware of what's going on. Most ppc advertisers, don't even know what ptr IS. If you ptr program Owners, could Work With The FEEDS, you could shut down the forced search sites in 1 HR Flat!

MO.

Let me clear up things hear, I've the impression that nobody got MO point at all.


Pittrr, thanks to you the advertiser (who didn't chose to be advertised in a PTR) made 4 sales, good, let say 16$ benefits from that.
But he must pay his PPC campaign : easily 500click at 5c, 25$

So his link advertised in PTR cost him 9$ net.


Yes there are buyers in PTR's but too many greedy people are just blind clicker, when an advertiser see 10,000 (to be paid $500) and 1 sales earning him $5, his judgment is correct, PTR is a crappy place to advertise.
The worst in the story is that all those blind clicker are stupid, because they are paid 0.1c by click where the advertiser pay 5c



To any Search Defenders in this thread, there is a solution to let you search but not steal advertisers money .

Members, click only if you need to search (we all know that's impossible due to greedy members)

Webmasters, don't send paying links but NonPaidAds, if it's your links, you put tha money earned back in the site. But you can also ell those ads a ta lower price and for optin only members.
The best option would be to have only search box(es) on your site


Remove the cash option on search and the real clicks amount will raise

Cheers,
Gray Eminence

We all get MO's point.... I just dont agree that all PTR is trash traffic. You think it is..... I dont.

huuum...
In keeping with MO's tendency to take threads off topic, I know that the op was concerned about members being ripped off by being forced to search, but if we follow Just One on the list in this thread, 'honestmails', and do a quick search on gpf for 'honestmails', it opens a Whole Other rather interesting box:

-honestmails.com
Search Results Ads results

-sell search ads
search result is very good Advertising Offers
(that's a nice recent active thread, the po is selling quite a few there, small wonder with Those kind of results eh..

-just more by the po selling lots of ads, the dl builder of course, where gpf supports the forced search sites such as this one, the looking for and upline etc, routine biz as usual.

But what I noted Most, was the proportion of ptr 'advertisers' interested in this program. They seem to be doing pretty nicely.

Anyone want to bet they'll be doing any less poorly a Month from today?
thought not.
let's pump up the Volume, MO Loathes it when Peeps don't HEAR Him:
- - -

A Chalenge to gpf
Let's see if your serious

This is a thread, about a tidy number of 'Forced-Search' ptr sites.
Some ptr program owners have posted that they think it a good idea to Do Something to Stop this. Some have even said they Are doing something, in the form of banning advertising of these sites at their programs.

So, MO thought it in interesting idea, to see how ptr program owners would Feel, about MO Carrying an addition to his sig here in gpf. I'd update my sig, to point to a page I'd chuck up on central, that Lists All these forced-search sites listed in this thread, so peeps can Easily Find them, Here in the Largest ptr 'related' forum on the internet, and earn some cash.
I'd Also point out to the ptr Search Advertisers, that They Too could Benifit from these forced-search sites, as the valids to clicks ratio is much Higher, than at the 'regular' ptr sites they are currently advertising at.

Carrying a sig, leading to ptr sites lists, is Perfectly Acceptable Practice here in gpf, so there should be No Problem, with MO being Afforded Equal Opportunity, to promote these forced-search sites, NO ?

Of course, should ptr program owners, that send searches, Don't force searches, and that Do Genuinely Care about the Reputation ptr has in the Advertising Community at large, take Exception to MO's 'promotion', then One would Assert, if gpf mods Determine that it is Not Acceptable for MO to point peeps to Forced Search Sites, it's Also Not acceptable, for Anyone Else to do Same, NO ?

MO would Also Consider it Biased Practice, should he Not be permitted to Advertise these sites via his gpf siggy, and gpf members are Still Afforded the Opportunity to Build Downlines, via the gpf dl builder threads for these Sites, NO ?

*to the mods: I realize of course, that referring to ones sig, is ?'able practice here, hence, there would be, in keeping with Centrals' Policy, NO ref links, on the landing page of this 'promotion'. I'd provide the page, as a 'public service' to the ptr community.

*Should any of the search-free ptr site owners listed on Central take Exception to MO's new promotion, and wish not to be Associated with a domain that Openly, Publicly, and Blatently Promotes Forced-Search-ptr-sites, I would fully understand, and remove your site from the domain at your request. Frankly, I would not want MY site listed on such a domain Either.
It's just that, from MO's chair, After the small handfull that have Posted on this, as even doing Anything to deter it, these sites Are, and will Continue Next Month to Be, Thriving, so perhaps we need to 'stir the pot' a bit, which MO, is actually quite good at, ya'll might have noted that.

off to work on the new page...

MO. (for What it's Clearly Here Not Worth, you don't get Popular, getting things Done, you just Get Things Done). (( since the 'Issue' at hand herein, is 'quality of ptr origin searches, MO would ask that Class-Act-Clicks be Included in the list of sites in this thread, for their Practice of Guaranteed Positive ROI on search ads, for their advertisers. )) Bri, what the heck are you Doing, reading my Lonnnng Rants, sheesshh... sorry, nothing personal, just trying to stir the pot enough to raise an eyebrow, no harm intended toward c-a-c, I just needed a major player, to rip, to keep the thread alive long enough for someone to Hear me.

MO.

3rd person talking

Anyways...... if your talking about running around the forum pointing at your sig and sending people to your domain that is still considered spam. If people see it and just click on it....... there aint no problem with that

running round the forum, and pointing to my sig, now would I do something like that??? No I don't mean I'd do that, just Carry the sig, they'll Find It.

But Please Mystical, don't walk away from this thread, feeling like 'we' feel PTR traffic is 'garbage', We Don't. At least not the 3 of us that have posted so Far.
I've actually got a little campaign running Right Now, at a small ptr site, that I personally consider to be doing very nicely.
But see, it's simply not, from a marketing point of view, to Compare that, to a ppc run, they are two Totally Different Animals, is what I'm saying here.

MO.

MO,

After reading the entire thread I think I understood one thing, the products ppc search engines sell, I mean the clicks they sell obviously are not the kind of advertisment you're looking for, the ratio price/result doesn't fit you, so why continue buying ?

I mean if I buy Coca Cola and I don't like it, I don't ask them to become orange juice, I simply go buy something else.

Just my 2 cents

Sophie

Well honestly I dont think my click is garbage... I have purchased quite a bit online......

Digital camcorder
Digital camera
dvds
clothing
back to school stuff
upgrades for my PC
computer software
pc games
PS2 accessories and games
gamecube games
coffee mugs for my mom because she loves native american stuff
etc.......

And thats just a small list This year probably 90% of my xmas shopping will be done online because I am very comfortable now using my credit card with places that have a veri sign logo etc...

Most of those items listed have been found by using ppc se's especially around the holidays.

Do I agree that there is garbage clicks...... I sure do.... but I also think that there are a lot MORE people making a conscious effort to search for something they actually NEED or WANT instead of just making a site a nickel or giving a "valid". If there wasn't we wouldnt see so many complaints about useless results etc.... and I get my fair share of those as well.

Mystical,

The point is that PTR buyers are the excpetion

It's clear that a visitor doesn't mean a sale, but a PPC visitor means somebody interested in the product.

What PTR is sending to the sites is mainly blind visitor, what I call "human bot"

If the advertisers wanted to get PTR traffic, by knowing what they get, they would come direclty, not via a PPC.
Any PTP campaign would cost so less than a PPC campaign for the same number of vititors

Cheers,
Gray Eminence

Ya know. I do get the point... and I'm not a human bot And like I said I dont think people that purchase thru PTR are an exception.... So no need for you to keep explaining to me like I dont have a clue

When I search and not particularly looking for anything, I love clicking those illegal pharmacy sites. I don't feel bad taking money out of those dirtbags pockets one bit

I also have made many purchases via the ppc search engines, close to $700.00 this year and that's not including Christmas so I agree with you mystical, not all are garbage clicks.

Exactly and I think many ppc search engines owners work on their traffic just like we see in this thread.

you read the entire thread? then you read that i churned out an UNHEARD of 11.5% cr on the 2nd tier ??? roflmfao....

MO, is Clearly, the most Loathed Thing, in this Forum.

congrats to all. will be a better place here Without Him.

enjoy competing with the forced se sites, rofl.

Am sorry MO, I don't understand your post, why would you have to leave this forum ?

I dont see where anyone said you were the most loathed person on this forum. And why would it be better without you. People disagree all the time? Its not the end of the world... just makes for discussion.

nope, sorry, I simply cannot stomach it any longer.
hope you'll respond to my pm request for deletion.
thanks.

Mo - really - step back a few days and take a breather.

Disagreeing doesn't make you loath-worthy. You are a valued member of the forum - I always enjoy your posts. I rarely post myself, but for you I make an exception.

I have to say that I see both sides. Those who are PTR PPC buyers don't want to be lumped in with the garbage trafic. Hey I'm one of them - and the money I spend online is valuable to ME.

But I also see that the advertisers have facts, they have statistical analyses, they have target percentages for percentage of sales. You can't say 'I don't agree' with those facts. I think that's why Grey keeps explaining it again and again, because he gets the 'I just don't agree' response...and since you can't choose to not agree with fact, he thinks you didn't understand him.

Think of this: if you paid $10 to promote a site that paid you $1 per referral, and you got 2 referrals, how happy would you be?

To say that it was an unsuccessful campaigns isn't saying the two new referrals that you got are not important and valued...it just means you lost money. You might even think to yourself, 'I never should have paid for that ad.' PPC advertisers lose money from PTR, even IF they get one or two sales. So they think to themselves 'this traffic isn't worth paying for'. It doesnt mean the one or two sales aren't valued.

But Mo - if the cheating is somehow taken in hand, then suddenly the ratio of sales per click will go UP. And a step towards that is going after the sites that have these elite groups of searchers. It's a VERY small step, but one nonetheless. You saying it won't make a heap of difference is frustrating. In order to make changes, we have to make small steps first - and we need to be supported in that not told ' well it's not enough so don't bother'

And I have read those forums that call this the click fraud forum. I think that's a misnomer - the bulk of the members doing the click-fraud never make it to this forum. Most of the active member's here want to clean up the industry.

OMG.................first off, there are valid points across the board in this thread.

However, I really don't think that PTR programs are necessarily to blame for the so called watered down click thrus and rois...........

Has anyone who pays for placement in the PPC SEs bothered to stop and think that as time goes on...........more and more internet users have become a bit more educated as to online buying and use search engines to do a bit of research before making a purchase?

I know myself I probably do at least 10-20 different searches at a bare minimum on several different occasions BEFORE I purchase what it is I am looking to buy.

With the advent of the internet avenue as a medium for shopping for anything and everything...........including saving me time and money for gas...............the internet has provided me the consumer with the ability to "Window Shop" for the best deals.

It also allows me to make indepth analysis of one product vs another before I spend one dime.

Certainly, PPC SEs receive their share of so-called useless traffic from bots etc..........but that IS the chance one takes when someone pays for a listing.

If PTR traffic was as useless and wasteful as some believe it to be...........the Search Engines would have totally done away with the traffic. I believe in the beginning the SEs stopped allowing PTR Programs to have search boxes on their sites in an effort to appease the paying PPC costumers..................however I do believe that really was a token gesture on their part.

I truly believe what we are seeing in not only this forum but other forums where PPC advertisers are complaining about PTR traffic....................are those who in reality do NOT have the budgets to be utilizing PPC SEs in the first place.

As I said in the beginning.............consumers are becoming more literate in the realm of cyber-purchases and I do believe you will find many of us do our homework before we hand over our cash.

Times change.............and as they change each and every one of us have to adapt with the evolution of progress or be left behind licking our wounds because we fail to move and grow.

I don't agree with admins sending out emails forcing people to search...........and I also don't agree that PTR clickers are the downfall of the ever decreasing results from PPC advertising.

To those who use PPC advertising.............maybe it's time to start utilizing PTR programs as part of your advertising budgets.............and just maybe...........if more money was placed into the hands of decent PTR Programs............and the influx of cash were to make it so that PTR members were paid more expeditiously from all programs......................PTR members would have the money to make the purchases of products that PPC advertisers are attempting to sell.

I'm sorry but leaving a forum over a difference in opinion really isn't the answer.

As well, while I understand the perceived threats of not wishing to name a particular website...............it makes me wonder what it is that you sell that you believe is so unique that people are going to start looking it up on PPC Search Engines to hurt you..............Are you saying that what you sell is so unique that a potential consumer is going to find your listing all by its lonesome in that list gathered by the SE results after someone types in a listing for your said products?

A long time ago I said here in this forum when one of the so called helpful threads was in progress that people needed to stop talking in riddles if they really wanted to help.

Anyhow, the answer to the PPC SE advertisers problems is far from being the fault of PTR members clicking on links blindly.

I tend to do a lot of research off of search engines and I be darned if I am going to stop doing that because a PPC advertiser has it set in their mind that my first click should result in some sort of conversion.

To each his own. It's a circle and if as Sophie pointed out the PTR programs were such a drain on PPC advertisers budgets...............why continue to utilize and pay for a medium that doesn't work????

you're talking about the active members in gd correct ?
you Clearly? are not talking about the active members in the advertising folders correct?

or should we go back to page one of this thread, and do a search on gpf for the forced search sites listed, and find how many 'advertisers' those searches point us to, and compare the number of 'active members', to those posting in this thread, and re-define 'active members', with regards to cleaning up this industry?

come. give me a break.

I know you dont agree with a lot of what is said here but I hope that you can see that by trying to do something about the sites who are forcing searches we are in turn showing that ptr is not all rubbish traffic and that we want to do something about it to try to give you and others quality traffic. Someone already said in a previous post we can only make small steps to do that.
I may not be what you classify as quality traffic but I know that just the other day a search engine took me to the Boots website, Boots is a major high street retailer and by reading what was on their home page I now know they have a double points offer on ( i wont go into detail about double points because unless you shop at that shop you wont have a clue what I am on about), I didnt purchase from the website but my daughter went to the shop and made a purchase so the advertising had a knock on effect and i dont think they care whether we purchased online or in person. i have also been on the O2 website (one of the major mobile phone providers) via a search engine I am already an O2 customer but I need to know they are still competitive for me to remain a customer and if I hadnt read what latest offers they had on free text messages with my package I may have gone elsewhere. Also from the viewpoint of someone who lives in a rip off price country searching is ideal for me not only may I find something a lot cheaper than over here but I may also find something that is not available in my country.

MO is right.

If you go into the advertising folder, the auction folder, you WILL find offers for search ads on these crappy ptr sites.
Those listings are how I found at least 2 of the ptrs to ban.

Anyone sending a search from one of those sites is going to be sorely disappointed when they get 0 valids.

The original point of this thread was to try and out, not only the PTRs, but also the Search Engines that have NOT banned these types of sites.

There's a whole lot of assumtion going on that if a PPC advertiser gets one click from a ptr link then that means ALL their clicks come from there, there is no way for that to be true or realistic.

I'm sorry that our little effort to clean up traffic isn't good enough for you Mo but we are trying. Denigrating that effort won't make anyone more sympathetic of the plight of PPC advertisers, it is more likely to have the opposite effect, as in "why bother trying".

Not that it matters but,
$50 worth at Overture did not get me one single conversion!
A banner at a PTR did! lolololol
I thought that advertising and its related earnings were usually spread out over several venues. If Coca Cola only relied on newspaper ads? well, they wouldn't reach people who didn't read one! Do they think that the earnings made from these newspaper ads should pay for all their advertising? OK, so maybe Coke isnt a good example and I am probably not wording this correctly. but I need another cuppa before brain function begins.

Off topic;

I want to thank everyone who posted in this thread , I have learned a lot , not just this thread either. This forum is a wealth of information.

(that is a serious thank you, not sarcastic)

MO I dont see anywhere anyone wanted you to leave the forum or that they loathed you. I learned a long time ago from a dear old friend I don't have to like everything about everyone but that I did need to learn to seperate out not liking actions over the person. Which I find very true. I don't have to like everything you say to respect you as a person.

I was sadly disappointed that you ask if you could help but instead you again went into attack mode about ppc and ptr sending out bad traffic.

You seem to have contradicted your statements in a couple places too. First you call my purchase and ptr traffic garbage and then you go on to say no all...

MO you make some very valid points and I find your posts most of the time very interesting. But wouldn't it make more sense to work with us to stop the problem and try to improve the traffic rather then against us? As you have seen with some of the posts not all the traffic is bad traffic.

But it also has been pointed out not every form of advertising is going to get you results either. And I think what sophie was trying to say is if you are not getting results with ppc traffic then maybe you need to look at alternatives.

Another thing that has not been pointed out is maybe it is not the traffic from ptr or ppc at all that is not getting you results. Perhaps it is the product, your site or various other things. I always figure when I didnt get results I need to try and find something that will or move onto to another form of advertising or approach.

I can't believe that ptr traffic is the doom of ppc. I have seen many other threads pointing fingers at click fraud being from many other sources and one or two articles pointing at ptr. I do understand bad traffic coming from ptr that is why I am in this thread trying to put a stop to what is going on with sites forcing searches and breaking search engine tos. That is why I spend hours finding cheaters in my programs. That is why I speak out to try and get the newbies and members to understand what is wrong with this industry. But putting those down or telling them that their sale isnt wanted by ppc advertisers isnt a way to win over fixing the problem, nor gain sales.

Is there no room to actually work with some of us to find a way to fix the problem or you so one tracked here there is no other way but to trash us all who are trying to make changes to this industry?

I agree with Belle's post. Whether a site forces searches or not, as soon as there is a paid link for a search site, to me it's incentivised. The programs that force searches just seem to be more upfront about it. Not that I consider this a good thing because what it does, is create unfair competition for the programs that don't force searches.

The ideal would be (I think it was MO that mentioned it) to have unpaid links for searches so that only people who really need to look for something will use the SEs. Programs can charge users to have these unpaid links listed on their sites and if anyone needs to look for something, they can click on those links.

Ugh, that's why I asked if we are expected to do a valid search when we click on a paid link from a PTR for a PPC SE. I don't understand the difference between doing a valid search on a Top Keyword through a site that forces searches and doing the same through a program that does not force searches. Isn't the end result the same? Why would a PPC differentiate between a PTR with "power searchers" and one without? If the PPC accepts incentivised (sp?) searches, why does it matter which program it comes from?

BTW: This is a layman's post; other than doing massive amounts of searches I'm not involved with PPC. I signed up for one, was clueless, and never promoted it.

I didn't realize they lose money if we click them, is this true??? cause if it is I'm gonna click away on them!!!

What topic is this thread about?? I thought it was about which PTRs SE have banned for forced searching, am I wrong?

This was about PTR sites and SE's banning sites which force searches ... Not sure where it wandered off too now

Has anyone heard the physics term "water seeks its own level"?

Like in any free market, this is basically what has happened with PPC search engines.

Advertisers will try them out and if they have a successful campaign, chances are they will use that search engine again. If not, they will continue shopping and probably end up forking over the big bucks to overture or Google.

Reputable PPC search engines will try, to the best of their ability, to give their advertisers the best return they can. If they have to remove a publisher or ban a URL, they are doing so in response to the advertiser's demands. Are they 100% successful with this? Of course not. Not even Overture or Google can make those claims.

Therefore, the advertiser takes a risk each and every time the place an ad, no matter WHO it is with. This is another reason why click values have dramatically dropped over the past 2 years. The click value has "found its own level" just like water does or the value of ANY product/service in a free market society.

Should we name the sites who FORCE searches? YOU BET! Why should we?
Simple: Those sites are distorting the true value of our searches even more than we are normally.

If 20 of the top "honest" PTR sites had a an average of 1/10% conversion factor from all valid searches made on their site (I am not talking about valid search clicks. I am talking about a search that led to a real SELL of a product), but then 3 sites that FORCED searches had a conversion factor of 1/100% (remember, these members MUST search and will most likely NOT directly purchase), you can easily see that those 3 sites should not be categoried with the top 20. They hurt our "true value" as honest sites AND as honest members.

What all of us in our small community should do is collectively agree to NOT do business with these sites because they truly are hurting the value of the sites AND of the members time.

That is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that even us PTP programs can combat them by removing them from our Approved Lists.

Since PTPs and Search Portals are the two largest revenue makers of sites these days, we can effectively cut 1/2 of the revenue off.

Will this wake that program up to start playing by the rules of the game that the honest sites do?

Who knows but at least OUR revenue can be better used for the honest sites.

Bottom line is:
1. OUR clicks ARE worth something (whatever that may be)
2. OUR searches ARE worth something (again, what that may be)
3. Scam sites or threatening sites which don't play by the same rules screws all of us, members and webmasters alike.

Rod

I agree with you.

Let me further add that we are not trying to tell these sites how to run their program. It is their choice/right to run it how they wish and if they want to violate rules from a Search Engine, who are we to say otherwise?

On the flip side, since that is THEIR choice/right, so too is OUR choice to not do business with them any longer (as a fellow site owner OR as a member).

That is OUR right.

Again, for those of us that may not understand how they hurt others, let me say this:

1. They hurt honest sites because Search Engines sometimes "blanket ban" all similar sites.
2. They hurt honest sites because they drive the cost per click down due to advertisers not paying as much to bid for placement of their ad because they see a dwindling response.
3. They hurt HONEST members because since the entire industry is paying less per valid search, individual advertisers that are promoting the search portals will pay less to the PTR site because they are not turning a profit and thus, instead of a 1cent PTR ad, you will get a 1/2cent...1/4cent....1/10cent ad to view.

Rod