Hmmm, pretty much the same , in french we say "blanc bonnet et bonnet blanc". If you don't get emails, you're not a active member, so you will be deleted anyway or at least will not earn.

Thank you to summarize it clearly

You could extend it to the brainwash about Ptp's clicks

It's Not. It is Not 'Forcing Searches'.

It is a gambit on the search sham, and I perfer the term to best describe the practice the ptr you describe to be engaging in as 'Performance-Targetting'.

It translates to this: '' I will Not 'Force' you to search. If you Refuse to, I'll just Cut You Off, and stop sending you search emails in any quantity, so You can't rip Me and MY advertisers off, while I Continue to Blast those that are Willing to do 40+ searches a day, at MY site, and Other sites, with those 40+ search emails a day, to Make Money, ripping off the PPC Advertisers, while Protecting my Own. ''.

You cannot make this work, for 'All' the 'Advertisers', it just won't shake down the pipe, it jams no matter How you cut it.

Edited to add:
well, you 'can' make it work. The ptr po, that sends search ads 'Responsibly', stops to think, 'what is a Reasoned Number of search ads per day, to expect my members to be Genuinely Interested in', that would result in a higher ppc advertiser roi from the ptr click-sector of their total click logs stats.

MO.

Its not brainwashing, Its money making. They give a higher value for their links. They give 0.5c,1c,2c, per link. Plus they usually pay within 24 hours. Do you think people like clicking 1/10 cents per day or even lower? Do you think that people like waiting more than 30 days for their payout? I dont condone force search thing, but you can see why it is so popular.

Those sites are a big part of the reason that link values are so low. I would much prefer to wait for payments and to have lower value links than to participate in such fraud which is just a polite term for robbery. You need to look at the big picture and the impacts and repercussions.

It is popular because people get the false view they will receive more and they do for a month maybe two then the sites lose money because they lost advertisers or people get fed up of searching and they stop paying and ignore emails asking where payment is. They then close up and re open another site and do the same so the member with 5 or 6 dollars earnings keep losing money each time they go from one site to another. Take a look in complaints section it is full of these sites who end up not paying or the site is gone.
I can see where its popular too but people need to be made aware of the consequences of these sites.
Yes I agree other areas of PTR need cleaning up to unfortunately there is nothing much can be done about some of the other things in PTR that make people join these sites in desperation because they have waited to long for payment at other sites.

I click ads for real products at 1c by click and I'm paid within the 12hours since 3 years, and I don't see any search in those links
It's a question of choice and greed.

I will attempt to answer your question. You choose interest categories that you presumably are interested in somehow. Interest don't mean you have to want to do them all the time. Goodness I am interested in gardening but I don't buy or want to do gardening all the time. Interest categories are for the benefit of the advertiser as well as the member to target what "Might" be of interest.

Now on to your questions. It is not wrong what your example did he did as it was stated what he is being paid to do. The search engines clearly state they can not incenticize a search you are paying him to visit the portal. What he chooses to do once he is there is totally up to him.

Now when a PO takes away emails because Pete as you say is not interested he is actually taking away emails which he would of recieved any other category. This is not forcing it is punishment. Which again is against search engine tos. You can not use any form of incentive. This is essense is a form of incentive.

The incentive here A benefit offered to encourage people to act in certain ways. ie. if you search you will recieve more emails and more money. This is the problem with the way it is done. Punishment is also incentive. Against search engine terms.

I was tryng to explain this in my last post not enough coffee yet. Members have been conditioned. It is the most elementary conditioning you would use on a child or an animal. If they do a good job they are rewarded (anyone see the incentive here) if they do a bad job they are punished.

Well, if you searchers find a sudden drop in your mails, you can blame me. I just heard back from over a dozen SE owners that I sent proof of TOS violations regarding incentivizing and iframes and many of these "affiliates" have now lost their accounts.

Good for you! It has to stop somewhere. It has gotten so out of hand.....

I'm not saying that we shouldn't do everything we can to try and keep our side on the up-and-up; the point I was trying to make is that if the feeds aren't concerned about the quality of traffic that they are giving to their advertisers, our PTR world could be oozing purity, and in the end it won't make a difference if those feed advertisers are not there to supply the lower tier SE's.

Again, I don't know if those major search engines are the ones supplying the feeds, but based on that assumption, who will be left to advertise on the "little guys"?

Renee

no, the majors don't have any impack on the 2nd tier, which is who supplies the advertisers bids for the small engines we see advertised at ptr sites and such.
The 'feeds', kanoodle, epilot, enhance, golcick, miva, some more, have their Own Advertisers, and those advertisers deposit Directly into the feeds accounts, then each click is deducted the amount of its' bid placement.

The 2nd tier, are pulling from msn and some 'big guys', as well as sending too, but could make it without them.

MO.

Its nice that you got them caught and the se responded, but how much of them do you think are going to actually do anythin.

I know the big picture of the value of ads, but individuals make up ptr or in this case pts. They dont think of thw whole picture. They think of the cash first. Plus these programs never run. Look at lookabc. They are a forced search site and they have been paying. Its not with autosurf that you can argue to the people that autosurfs wouldnt pay. These sites pay. The ones who complain are the ones who are receiving few emails for not searching.

Do you think the member really care about i0frames if they are getting paid.

Actually yes I do think "Some" of the members do care. I have members who had no idea about forced seach sites or 0 iframes and when they learned about them were throughly disqusted. So yes I do think some do care.

Do I think they all care no. I think there are some who could care less what they were being forced to do or what was being done with their clicks as long as they made thier money. But those members tend to be the ones who will click away blindly at an ad as well. We might as well just throw a bunch of links out there and say click away I will give you x amount for wasting our time.

But yes there are members who care. Why do you feel that you need to keep telling all of us that no one cares about what we are trying to educate about?

I think more would if they really understood what they were. Until a few weeks ago, I'd never heard of them. Once the iframe cheating is stopped and the click fraud POs start losing accounts, the whole system they've set up will implode. If you notice most of them are set up with 0% activity requirements so that the big promoters get paid without ever worrying about doing a search. I'm betting that the big downlines belong to the same handful of owners in eash other's programs. I've starting following the trail of ref links of the SEs that appear in the iframes and they match the reflinks that appear in over 80% of the ads for these sites. When these few start losing, the whole thing comes down.

Maybe the reports you had probably do it, because only really a few wm. I do believe a few members care, but most are for the money.

MO complainys. and He don'ts even Belong to a site that sends search ads.

no, I don't think members that are clicking se ads all day to make money care much about 0-iframes, barring the ones that are doing it, and don't yet Know they are being Used. But the ppc advertisers Do, so that sorta provides a little 'incentive', for the small 3rd tiers to tow the line a bit, in case a cranky like MO happens by.

MO.

now would that fall under the catagory of an organized top-loaded 0-iframe/forced search sham ring. gotta luv paid-to...

It gets pretty obvious when you look at the iframes of the 20+ sites they appear on and there are only about 12 or so ref links. Then when you start clicking on the banners for these sites to check the iframes the ref links that appear there match the ones in the iframes from the previous site you checked.

Right on !

Then these ads, since the SE advertiser only wants to send ads to "searchers", he is willing to only allow "these" people to make money for his ads.

This is called incentive.

This is AGAINST S.E. TOS

No mystery there !

Are you sure about that? Remember that while a member might make 1/4cent, the advertiser bid at the SE may have been 10cents, so their loss should be calculated at their level, not at our level

I know people hate it when anyone tries to come up with some example numbers but how about it?

How many ptr sites are there? How many members do they have from "search friendly" countries and how many of them are searching each day, and how many different sites are they members of?

There's a lot of variables here, not all sites are sending 50 searches a day and forcing them but I think it would be interesting to consider a few scenarios...

500 ptr's x average of 100 members searching x 10 valid searches a day x $0.10 bid x 30 days a month = $1,500,000 a month

Click fraud ptr's/forced searching sites I have no idea how to estimate how many, let's say 50 of them

50 sites x 50 searches a day x 2000 members search each day x 30% valid rate x $0.10 bid x 30 days a month = $4,500,000

I did those with random numbers, the top one I think should be a lower number of sites and/or members, but I left it high to compensate for the sites with 10k members and the forced searching sites, the interesting thing is though it looks like that number could be too low, because that second scenario I would say is fairly accurate and yet it's 3 times higher than the background rate from all ptr's overall! (if you accept the numbers that I've plugged in)

Things not added in, all the parked domain pages, the results on these seem to be coming directly from feeds, eg Sedo has google results, so they will probably be higher bids? And these are getting more popular.

Another thing not added in is the google adsense fraud where emails are sent out saying 'check out my site and while you're there pls click my google ads' and it's a lovely page all about mesothelioma.

The other thing not added in is the click fraud sites are also running autoclick scripts with the 0iframes, so that is also costing the advertisers and could be 1 of those not just for every search done, but for every hit to their index page, run that in an autosurf and imagine the possibilities!

You should know that something is wrong when people are driving traffic to PARKED domain names just to make money from clicks...

Hi crframe,

I kept some of her delightful emails:

giving you the facts..........
I am going to tell you exactly how it is. The search results suck!!! We have members clicking links and not searching. I have been as nice as I could be trying to encourage members to search. So, here is how it is going to be. If you are just clicking and not searching you are not getting paid. The money to pay you comes from searches. As much as I would like to pay you for just clicking and not searching that is impossible. I am going to be checking searh engines daily. All 40 plus of them. I will still reward the active searchers and I think just paying the honest members the payouts will go quicker. If you have requested payout and have not searched do not count on payout. I will be deleting cheaters and inactives tonight so the search results will be high for the amount of clicks and the payout can be lowered. On another note......I am not being harsh. But this is a business. It is like any other job. You have to work to be paid where I have the money to pay you.

monday info-and and a note
I just want my members to do the best you can and do as many valid searches as you can. Yes I understand no one is perfect. But like right now for instance....I am behind a few payouts right now. For members like 65 who have been paid several times you know I pay. But this is my problem. We are slow at getting search engine payouts right now due to several members who are not doing their jobs. These are the members who the note yesterday was directed to. If you are honest and try you have nothing to worry about. If you are just clicking......Dont hold your breath waiting to get paid. I only pay honest members. Have a good monday.

friday bisonsearch
To all the members who are searching......Thank you. To the rest of you... I will not pay members not searching. We do not even have a 33 percent click through rate. I go through accounts before I pay you and I do not pay members not searching.Blind clicking is not going to get you paid. I work through other companies and try to make sure that every link I click gets a search. So new policy.I will be going through accounts every saturday. The searchers will get bonuses and the cheaters will be deleted. The more searches you do the higher the bonus you will see. I going to reward all honest members and delete the dishonest ones. I think this is a fair system. So you decide which you want to be. Have a great day. Looking for something?

note from admin
I am very proud of you guys!!!! The searches are almost to 50 percent of the members clicking. Just a little more and we go to a 3 dollar payout.Right now I am making member payouts on a daily basis. Two members were paid today and two more tomorrow. This is what happens when everyone does their searches. Keep up the great work and I see alot of searcher bonuses in the very near future!!!! Looking for something?


Cheers,

Shannen.

Hi Shannen,

Wow! Good for you for saving those! I wish that I had - especially after the admin came here and claimed that what she was doing was acceptable practice, too.

I got so stressed out, not knowing that this wasn't even allowed, worrying about not being able to search for whatever reason, and hoping that she wouldn't be calling me a cheater because I wasn't able to search.

Thank goodness I finally learned that I never had to put up with that. I am now happy to be mostly search free. There are very few sites that I get searches from, and the ones that I do, I only use when I am looking for something in particular. It is a huge relief to not have to worry that I will get in trouble if a search engine doesn't have results that I was searching for or just redirects me to more search engines. If it isn't what I searched for, I just try later with a different engine and hope that they have a listing for whatever product I'm looking for. The lack of worrying about it has made doing PTR much more enjoyable for me.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I'm happy that you saved those!

Take care,
Cindi2
crframe

Oh wow! Those messages are absolutely appalling

Not only is it a disgusting way to treat your members, she is effectively telling people their job, if they want to be paid, is click fraud on her search links. Anyone who doesn't do a good enough job is called a cheat?!? And their crime is not helping her cheat the search engines

It's a shame that quite often this kind of psychological maniplulation actually seems to work - especially with people who are new to PTR and don't understand the nuances of being paid to search and that the advertisers who pay for SE advertising absolutely do not want traffic from affiliates like this.

I know I will probably be hated for this comment but that PO might just as well be paying people to go pickpocketing and calling them cheats if they don't manage to grab someone's wallet, but giving them a pat on the head when they do succeed.

Umm the original comments on this site were quite a while ago - could you remind us which site we are talking about here? ty

I know I will probably be hated for this comment but that PO might just as well be paying people to go pickpocketing and calling them cheats if they don't manage to grab someone's wallet, but giving them a pat on the head when they do succeed.

Amen I applaud u for that! Cause I agree!

If that PO can see who is searching does that mean she is sending her own search links? Wouldn't that make it easy to report her for incentive searches?

=================================
Here are the reasons why we ask you to search: Search engines are
using: Bloost- E-gold; Boeze- Paypal; Bullcats-E-gold; TMC Search-Paypal;
Correct-Search- Paypal; Gikkle-Paypal; Kronos-search-Paypal;
Gozinta-E-gold; Questforinfo-Moneybookers; Prosumus-Paypal;
Lookjunction-Moneybookers.. As you can see, you help out, we can pay you.
=================================

Please make a valid search

search-information.com/......................................................


As I am from a non search country, i don't know too much about any search engine except google and yahoo (I use google for all the info I need).
But one of the programs keeps sending me search emails, always asking to search.

Is this OK, or should the owner be warned? he used to send admins asking precisely to search if we want to be paid.

I didn't have enough time to read the whole thread, maybe this site is already mentioned.

Monia

Maybe that webmaster trying to be sneaky and will delete you if you searching from nonsearch country.

I don't know about warned, I think they just need reporting to the search engines in question and named and shamed in the forum.

It is not ok. As far as I know those search engines don't allow incentive searches, one of them I don't even think allows ptr's to send the portal links out.

I don't think it's so much of a problem that he is sending them to non-search country members, most web sites natural traffic will more than likely include some people from non-search countries who will use the search engine, the affiliate would not get paid for this and I believe if they send too much they could lose their account.

The point is that the majority of search engines don't allow an affiliate to incentivise or imply incentivisation for searches, that one has really crossed the line. What some search engines do allow is incentive visits to the portal page - what the member does after visiting the portal is supposed to be up to them, search if they have something to search for, not because they were paid, and visit a result because it suits their needs, not because it will help them get paid at a PTR site.

You should check the TOS or write the PO though in case they have a rule that non-search country members are not allowed to search, because then, like Rashid said, it's just like a cheat link for you but not marked as one.

Would someone tell my which PTR/webmaster this came from??? PLEEEEEZZZZ

I am curious is this is one site or a couple sites that have been mentioned on the last two pages? I sure would like to see some info on this and place these sites on my list

(I didn't read the whole thread, but... nevermind since I already posted)



If I'm right, it's already there. That looks exactly like the emails I got from Lowermainland when I was a member.

from lowermainlandptr.com


A usual beginning of the email:
Welcome to Lowermainlandptr
Unsubscribe information is at the bottom of the page.
=================================
Here are the reasons why we ask you to search: Search engines are
using: Bloost- E-gold; Boeze- Paypal; Bullcats-E-gold; TMC Search-Paypal;
Correct-Search- Paypal; Gikkle-Paypal; Kronos-search-Paypal;
Gozinta-E-gold; Questforinfo-Moneybookers; Prosumus-Paypal;
Lookjunction-Moneybookers.. As you can see, you help out, we can pay you.
=================================


Then today's paid email>:

============================
PAID LINKS
============================


This search engine pays extremely well when valid searches are
performed. It is highly recommended that you signup and start earning today


(mentioning the search engine now)

then:

BONUS AD

By doing searches with this search engine, you show your dedication to
the sponsors.

.............................................




Is this allowed?

None of the engines mentioned are not mine, however, I will say that as a PTR member the first ad:



Don't they all pay well when valid searches are done? Not a good enough ad to get me to click the link to check out the site.




hmmmm....so you are not dedicated to the sponsors if you don't need to search? Oh, this one is very appealing, NOT!!!



This is the problem area for me with this email. Is she saying that if I want to be paid by Moneybookers that I should search with gikkle or lookjunction? Seems that she is implying that the site is supported by search engine revenue and if you want to get paid you better search. As we have learned in the past any site supported by search revenue alone is doomed. How does she get money to pay members from non-search countries (are they even allowed to join)?

I always get redirected to google and none of the above apply to my ISP...and the reason I can say that is, I just switched from a dial up ISP to DSL and the redirecting to google happened all the time on the dial up and is doing the same on the DSL...so I don't think this is the problem.

It's a guy, and there were PLENTY of whining emails sent out. Here's a bit of correspondence:



MY reply:



HIS reply to me:




I was just like and left it alone.

'asking for searches is not against the TOS, forcing the searches is'

Scared by this reply lol

puiwaa~

asking for searches = incentivising users to make searches = not allowed by virtually every search engine

My apologies, someone referenced that SHE came to the forum and defended HER point of view.

There were two different sites being discussed. My post at the top of the page was about a site owned by a woman who came here and defended her point of view, when the site was initially mentioned in this thread back in September.

Later down the page, the discussion turned to LowerMainlandPTR which has a male owner, who I don't think has been in to defend or explain his point of view.

I dunno. I thought the purpose of ads is a little more subtle than just immediate sales. Advertizing on TV or radio certainly doesn't guarantee sales..rather it guarantees a certain numerical quantity will be an audience. Everyone viewing an ad may not be actively looking to purchase a car (for example) at that moment but the effectiveness of the ad is measured when the person decides to make the purchase. When I view an ad anywhere, at anytime when I eventually decide to make a purchase I know where to look and what company to support. A magazine may contain 1,000 ads...am I going to puchase any of the products immediatley? Probably not, but I have done research. Did I buy a magazine or watch a TV program based on which ads they contain...certainly not. I didn't read the whole thread so maybe I missed the point, but advertsing is an expense of doing business. When I search, I frequently put 10 or more ads on my favorite's list to: reread, make comparisons or sometimes make the purchase. Oh well, this is why I don't frequent forums. Seems to be mostly complaints.

The search advertisers aren't expecting immediate sales, that is not the complaint.

Incentivising searches is against the rules of search engines, these sites are breaking the rules and this is to the detriment of members and the advertisers at the search engines.

When the advertiser buys ads with a ppc engine, they are buying highly targeted traffic, (non-incentivised), but when sites incentivise and force searches in ptr, that isn't what the advertiser is getting.

Imagine you are selling childrens' toys and decide to advertise on TV (not so targeted as ppc), so you choose a cartoon channel to show your ads. Then you find out that someone in the chain sent your ad on the channel for 0ver 60s gay men. You aren't going to think, well maybe they have grandchildren or something and there's still a chance of a sale, you will see that the chance of a sale has gone down from 1 in 100 to 1 in 5000 (for example) and be annoyed that you didn't get what you paid for.

10 months ago I started this thread as a warning about these sites that are forcing searches and 10 months later I thought its time to do some research and see how this has moved on.

The complaints section is full of posts about sites not paying or not sending emails to members if they not doing valid searches.
Only the honest members get payed hmm the complaints is absolutely full of these sites and some members being payed and some not.
http://www.getpaidforum.com/forums/index.p...howtopic=454391
http://www.getpaidforum.com/forums/index.p...howtopic=446975
http://www.getpaidforum.com/forums/index.p...howtopic=444334
http://www.getpaidforum.com/forums/index.p...howtopic=422555
http://www.getpaidforum.com/forums/index.p...howtopic=435743
I could list more but all you need to do is look in complaints and you see thread after thread of sites like the ones above doing the same.

Why are members still supporting these sites and ignoring the way they are abusing members and treating members like they are to be used and abused by bad PO's?

Hello,
just got the message below from trafficool.com
regards,
Richard

hi, all our dear members,

We got feedback from advertisers.Our ads result is too bad these days.I am very angry.we have many lazy members!So that our ads results is worse and worse.
I dont want it continue! I have to kick out those lazy members(dont make valid search)!
So if i found you are lazy, you will be put in dishonest group which can't receive any paid mail or very few paid mail only.Because I Do want to pay every active and honest member! I dont want my site close just because of the poor ad rusults and none advertiser come to my site.

We all know that:
good ad results will bring more advertisers and more paid emails.
poor ad results will make less and less emails,even end with close site.
So please continue support our advertisers!Show me your active,make more advertisers come back!

thanks all!

WOW

They really are getting more and more blatant arent they...

Belle

TrafficCool has been on the banned list at my sites for 0 Iframes guess I get to add forced searches to the list ugh ....

... Can forcing searches get any worse than this?!?

My thoughts on searches, be it a site that sends search mails or a forced site.

First off I refuse to join a site that states on the front page that they don;t accept AOL or proxy members. I don;t use either, but that gives me a clue as for down the road. I also refuse to join a site that says "active" and now I am seeing "active search" memebers on the front page get more mails. I refuse to join that site. These indicators tell me that the site is looking for almost 100% valid searches, which is impossible, no matter how much you search.
Now I search all day long at my job, but I cannot be using PTR mails as my avenue to be doing the searching. It is not allowed. When I get home I also have things I am currently researching, so therefore searching beomes part of that.
But like someone stated earlier, I do search and also recall where some ad came from, it is called that favorites button. So therefore am I cheating the advertiser?
Do I search every mail I get? No I don;t, so am I cheating? No because you paid for me to look at your site and if I see something I may be interested in I will go further. But to click a link to make that valid search is also wrong.
I think if people would stop doing all the valid searches on every link in a mail that would help put some of these sites out of business. So who cares if they X amount of cents for the link. The site will eventually fold. The ones that are honest are the ones that have numbers indicating that not every link is being searched as a valid search.
This do more valid searches, your account has been put on termination, your PP has been charged back because you did not do valid searches shoould send up some red flags.
We do not see these mails because an ad was sent for a ref link and so and so did not get the number of refs they expected.