This is the latest email received.. ! Shouldn't that have been sorted the same as what Golden Tools did (sell the site including the payments to members???) I know this is a "ONE OFF" thing but it sucks that I went their and clicked the Paid2click section daily for months + read all the emails!! and what good is advertising when people are sick to death of this site and all its crap??

Hello All,

First of all I want to THANK ALL who have wished me well, Purchased Gold Memberships & Said Yayyyyy to the no paid search policy I have!

It will be about a week before I start sending out regular PAID emails..This is all so new to me and I have TONS to read up on and learn.

I would like to address earnings questions. Alot of you have emailed me asking about earnings.....

Some of you have substantial earnings in your account...I wish I could pay you....but that is unrealistic! I am however (and I know some of you are not going to like this) going to convert all cash to points. This is going to be a ONE TIME EVENT...I could not possibly afford to pay out over $1000.00 in cash when I haven't made anything yet.
All POINTS will be used to advertising & for banner impressions on the PaidToClick Page.

I so wish I could have done things different but it is not possible!

For all of you who Purchased your Lifetime gold memberships...Your ads will be the FIRST to go out. Also I will be mailing you to ask for your info most likely on Christmas when I will have some time to actually get something done on here.
(After Presents & Dinner)

Please feel free to email me at anytime with any questions or concerns..I will answer as soon as I can.

I will also be going through and deleting inactive members..If you know that you have been inactive for more than 60 days and want to remain a member, Please email me and let me know.
I want to make a FRESH start with Active members

Yeah Juliet, this is becoming a bit of a regular occurence

EliteEmail done the same, I clicked through all the emails I was sent. was nearing cashout and BOOM they sell the site and all the earnings had to be used for adverts.

I sent an advert with my earning and got ZERO referrals out of it

It seems a waste of time carrying on with half these sites of late!

I just honestly hope she didn't pay to much for the site as I doubt she'll ever get the money back.. once a site has gone this far under its hard to bring it out..

another thing I found strange was straight away offering a "gold" membership.. and it seemed people have forked out for it..

ah well I was sitting on 88. something something cents for soo long anyway.. even with doing the crappy 0.001 cent paid2click section

oh and I never did get my point redemption ad sent out (that I requested ages ago now)..

I just joined this site last night..... Maybe I'll just have to go un-sub.

I have clicked on the links at the site and have a whopping .0003 in my account!

Not liking the looks of this one already.

Who owns the site (PaidMailINC)? As I'm not a member.

But I surely think this kinda thing should be out-lawed!

Its the same with that Chis Cool character, he buys sites, then a few days later they're getting sold again, I have about 4 programs that he owns and I don't know whether I coming or going with them!

Why can't WM's do the decent thing?

Open a site, if they can no longer handle doing it, pay everyone off and sell the site or even shut it down!

As I don't think there as ever been a case were someone has taken over a site and actually improved it, they just seem to go downhill from the second they're sold!

so do you tink i shoudl quit? i have about 12 cents with it...

Don't know, it might get you a 1 point advert to 2 people or something, lol...

Wow! what a bad webmaster! she shouldnt do that. if she is a member of this forum and is looking at these messages, i think she should rethink this. Sometimes u have to take a loss if u promised your members money...

guess i was a lucky one that got paid before hand! a couple of months ago....and here i was stating here that she was just a slow paying webmaster.......that owed $1,000 in redemptions!!

i think they are changing the whole point system too. it was something that i read. was it sending out an ad in gold membership? i saw somewhere something about 100 pt something.....memory fading with so much on.

well 100 points.....i have 3 pts in my account which WAS equivalent to $3.00!

and this is a bit hard!! it's on the homepage


so what happens when you isp goes down? which can happen occassionally.

AND another one bites the dust!! I've got a little over 77 cents, a crap load of point points (oyyyy) and lost 3 of my 5 referrals!

I'M FRIKKIN SICK OF POINTS AND WEBBIES WHO RUN!!!

Sorry, off the soap box now.

oh I lost 2 of my 3 referrals as well...

down to 1 inactive (funnily enough)

lololol at my bad luck! i have a comp on my get paid page and of the TWO people who have entered, one joined up for paid mail inc!!!!

my account is back

I am also a member of this program and this lady didn't promise anyone anything and she doesn't owe anyone anything. The wm who sold it to her should have the decency to pay the members out of the money she got from selling the site. As far as I'm concerned she didn't even have to convert the cash to points, she could have just deleted all earnings and started over. Think about what you are saying. So you think if you sold a car to "Tim" which he still owed you $200 from, and I bought that car from "Tim", you think that I would have to pay you that $200. Well it doesn't work that way. It's not her fault, give her a chance!!

lol shanelle, in nz anyway, that car would be reposessed and the last person who bought it doesn't have a leg to stand on (or should i say, a car to drive, lol).

while i agree it must be hard for a new owner to take over, these are the issues that should have been discussed beforehand.

if a shop owner decides to sell, he does it with assets etc. and then usually makes an introduction wishing the new owner well, and support from the current customers.

yup, golden-tools was on-to-it!

No, Shannell, it's not her fault. But considering she bought it, she's aware I'm sure of at least the workings of a paid mail site. You cannot sit there and tell us that she had no idea that there were actual members with actual earnings on this site.

It's both the seller and the buyer. You ask questions BEFORE you buy. And I am very surprised at Vicki, considering she told us all that she was considering selling, but decided against it. And started making changes for the better on the site.

Yes, I do expect to get paid. I did the work. Do you not pay your employees what they earned? I think it's in webmaster's interest, as evidenced by Golden-Tools, to be up front and try their best to make sure the status and the earnings and the referrals stay intact or give each member their own choice as to cash out and leave or remain.

Too too TOO many webbies have left too many people hanging out to dry these past few years, without justification. This isn't right, no matter how you look at it. It's not much, but over the past 2 years alone, I've lost several HUNDRED dollars because of either dishonest webbies, or actually rather rude new owners.

Do not presume that we'll accept it, whether it's for pennies or dollars. We were faithful, hard working, and honest. I'm still a member there, I didn't run try to cash out or beg or anything else. I was giving it a wait and see. BUT we ALL know what this point system leads to, and one day really soon, webmasters are going to learn that not all of us are as stupid as some of them treat us.

Giving her a chance, and hopefully she'll abide by her word in the fact she said that the points would not be forever. If she goes beyond this "short term", well ... hopefully she won't.

Hi,

I just don't understand why people buy existing sites ...why don't they buy a new one ?

So, they don't have to rip off members and they wouldn't give the ex-owner the possibility to run with the money owed to the members.
The new owner knew what she bought, she knew there were earnings to be paid to members ... if she couldn't pay it out, maybe she shouldn't have bought that site ?

I wish all the sites sold to new owners were sold honestly like when Golden Tools was sold.....

Some webmasters make a job of it, they buy sites, use it to send their NPAs and when too many members come to cash-out, they rapidly sell the site .... and 2 month laters they begin again whith a new one ....

Sophie

Also, when you buy a old site, it has a bad reputation.. and many people will not be willing to stick around or join.

she must have had this money with people advertising through her... and I'm sure she must have been pocketing quite a bit when you see the price of her links..

The problem lies in that instead of keeping the money in the "paid to" site many website owners spend it thinking "ah well I'm sure I'll have the money when the requests come in"

But they don't! so the ads get cheaper again, the excuses start growing.. they talk about selling.. but oh we'll still get our money NOT!

Did anybody see any 2 cent links?? (Up to two cents per paid Email) buhahaha

AND to finish off... she must have owed a lot of people over a long period of time for it to be in the thousands because those links were worth stuff all! even with a downline it would take you ages to get any real money

Well if members lost over 1000 dollars from the former owner they could go after him for fraud. Like being done with another site. The owner is bound by the tos, to pay the members. By what I read here, he/she took the cash, sold the site and left members with nothing.
Do what their doing here;
http://www.getpaidforum.com/forums/index.p...5430&f=1&t=8691

Don't take it, all members should go after him for fraud.

my opinion.

i just got up. kids are with daddy til Tuesday Yeah.

anyways,

for everyone who requested redemption BEFORE the site was sold, Vickie is responsible for paying that.

I for one requested payment as did many people.

I'm deleting my account because I don't need this.

Vickie is no longer nice in my books.

she had redemptions way way before the selling of the site.

im still wait and see

i lost 30 downlines

Well I requested payout from Vicki almost 2 months ago, then again about 3 weeks ago. I still haven't received the 1st payout yet and she sells the site. I hope she doesn't run any other ptrs. If she does can anyone post which they are so I can make sure I am not a member. This whole affair s___ks

When Vicki still owned the site, I saw posts by people saying that she did pay, she was just really slow to pay. Now that she has pulled this stunt, I don't see how I can conclude anything other than that she is a thief.
Personally I only had something like 38 cents there, but that is not the point. It makes me very angry that people can get away with doing things like this.

i wrote the new webmaster and got no reply back yet.

i told Colleen that all those who requested redemptions before vickie sold out has to be paid and both of them owe it to the members to be honorable.

vickie received many redemptions before selling the site. so therefore Colleen should instead of giving Vickie any money should pay out all those redemptions!

Yes I would pay my employees what they have earned but I don't know the laws where you are from but here in Canada if I were to sell my business, I am responsible for debts I had incurred unless otherwise stated in a contract, not the person who buys it from me. The previous owner never stated in any of her letters that when the site was sold, the new owner would pay what was owed, like Golden Tools wm stated.
And no I don't think she is responsible for money that the previous webmaster owes us. Obviously thru her letter she was not aware that the debt was so large because who would buy it if they knew. Although I think she should have looked into it more, I do not think she's responsible for debts incurred by someone else. And you should expect to get paid but in my opinion you are expecting to get paid from the wrong person.

Actually, here in Canada....

Its' the other way around.

If you purchase a company, you purchase it's assets and it's liabilities unless it's otherwise stated in the contract of sale.
This covers corporations, partnerships and registered companies.

Normally, the purchase is handled by lawyers (or notaries, in Quebec). All financial information must be disclosed and the buyer SHOULD have the company books audited by a profesional. If information is withheld and only discovered after the fact, then this becomes both a criminal and civil matter.

As bad as I feel for the new owner, she is responsible for outstanding debts. She is equally eligible for the outstanding receivables. Do you think that when one company buys out an other company they tell the employees and suppliers of th purchased company, "Sorry, THEY owe you not us"?

We all know that ignorance is no defense. She should have known!

However, this is not the "real" world and the "employees" (the members) are not covered by the labour laws. The best you can do I quit the site and not recommend it to others.
As for the previous WM, I agree with Shadowman. Only by grouping together and taking this into a legal arena will this matter be resolved to the members satisfaction. I am sure there are also advertisers that are owed ads, also. They could be included in the action.


:ph34r:

like a bunch of us did with Epipo" and we will now all get our share.

and other surfing programs are still out there under investigation.

thats what it means to group together. file a lawsuit.


same laws apply for internet as well as for in the real world.

I'm not sure the laws in Quebec but alot of them are different than the rest of Canada. Unless it is otherwise stated in a contract, all liabilities remain with the previous owner.

well if paidmailinc is registered in the US then you can just go to the district attorney for internet fraud.

every country has their own rules i guess on internet fraud.

me, i lost my 1 little lonely ref lol

It may not seem like alot of money ($1.00 or less) but for many of these programs its takes months if not years to reach it..

to be ripped off in this sense (ah well I've had enough I'll just sell the site and not worry about paying anyone) sucks!

Its extremely tempting to take legal action but being in little old NZ I wouldn't have a clue what is really needed and for 88 cents you'd be laughed out of court.. now if everybody banded together like what Ilostmytruelove is suggesting then it may be possible.

Either way I hope the old owner is reading this and knows that people will be watching now and if she tries to open a new program it WILL be boycotted!

It's exactly the same in the USA.

WHen you purchase a business, you purchase the Assets and the Liabilities.

That is exactly why i refuse to sell coppercoins, because i know whoever took it over would do exactly this...

As it is i'm shutting it down in April, gave 6 months notice to my members,
transfered 1/2 the members earnings to their mec-co-op accounts,

Currently there are 600 members left at coppercoins.

I'm lowering the payout to $5 Jan 15th, those that have $5 in their accounts can redeem for cash at that time...

after they redeem, i will cancel their accounts when 0'd out..

THen March 15th i'm lowering the payout to 1cent...
that way anyone left can redeem..

all redemptions must be in by March 31st..

Then the site goes down April 1st.

Am i the only one with any common decency here?

I think what these people are doing is terrible.

This particular site had a bad rep because of the original owner (i won't mention names, but he hacked a bunch of sites including mine).
so he sold it. The buyer had to know the site was worthless..................
So now it's sold again.

Since this is the internet, and not a physical building with tangeble assets, i don't know what the law is, i'm sure it's similar, but who do you complain to? If we knew, we could complain about jotter, alladvantage, epipo, and a bunch of others...

Not to mention those that delete our accounts when we request payments.

I think we just need to get to know the webmasters of these sites, and only deal with the one's proven to be honest, sincere and reputable.

It's things like this that turn off members from good sites....and give the rest of us a bad reputation............

People are really tired of getting the royal screw, been there done that, (had it done to me, more than once).

Shame on these jerks that have no consideration for the members that put money in their pockets for months, and worked their butts off only to get screwed out of a few cents...

What baffles me, is they'll open up a new site, and these same people will sign up only to get the shaft again and again...

I also agree, why would anyone buy an existing site, when they can purchase one cheap enough and start from scratch...

makes no sense to me at all.

I definitely think someone should be held responsible, I just don't think the new owner should. She didn't earn any money off those emails that were sent that we clicked on to earn money. The one who sold it is probably sitting back laughing because the new owner is taking all the slack for it. She's the one who should be taking the heat. I hope she gets what she deserves and someday I'm sure she will.

Although I agree, you definitely know how some people just like to knock the wms down. This woman doesn't own any other site that I'm aware of and most of the people here complaining about it, will remain a member of it and then come back in here to complain again in a few months when it shuts down again. I read the folder on read2berich, where he lost database or had to start over for some reason, and have noticed that a few yelling scam had signed up again. Why complain and remain a member or sign up again? I think she is trying her best to deal with the situation without having to shut down. Would you guys rather she just shut it down and gave you nothing for what you have earned. Regardless of what happens, not everyone will be happy about it.

Unfortunately, there is no law against being a person not good at running a business unless that person does so fraudulently.

As a former bankruptcy trustee (and attorney), I saw many small businesses bite the dust because of poor cash management, and I saw many business-buyers end up in Ch 11 because they failed to follow a basic rule of purchasing a business and seeking a proper valuation for it. Under the Uniform Commercial Code (a set of laws that govern many business and commercial transactions), the new owner of a business is responsible for ALL liabilities (debts) of the business prior to sale except for those debts that were not disclosed to them prior to sale.

Now that was a mouthful but hypothetically if one were to pursue the new owner for cash payments (sorry, Colleen), the new owner would be liable for payment. The downside is there are not enough members to complain to form an injured class and qualify for class action status. As well, proving intent to defraud is very, very difficult not to mention expensive. The alternative, and this should be taken broadly to encompass all GPT programs, is for each member to take the appropriate legal action to seek recompense. If one is willing to spend hundreds of dollars to recover $20, it seems kind of silly doesn't it? The most one could recover, unless you were able to prove intent to defraud, is treble the amount owed in *some* states. Even if you were awarded judgement, a simple $198 bankruptcy filing would negate any judgement as you would not be a secured creditor and would again face providing the burden of proof of intent to defraud. The Federal Rules of Evidence have not yet carved out a clear path or precedent as to what electronically can be considered evidence in meeting the fraud burden of proof.

The current precedent for determining if a fraud was committed with intent is as follows:

"The scheme to defraud need not have been successful or complete. Therefore, the victims of the scheme need not have been injured. However, the government must show "that some actual harm or injury was contemplated by the schemer." Because the defendant must intend to harm the fraud's victims, "misrepresentations amounting only to a deceit are insufficient to maintain a mail or wire fraud prosecution"

The law is somewhat silent on changing compensation for services performed after compensation has been booked (or awarded) for said service. WM are free to change their TOS at any time, and members are bound to it if they take *any* action that could convey affirmation (i.e. clicking on a paid link after a TOS change). The TOS are a legally binding contract as it possesses the basic elements of a contract - offer (sending the paid mail), acceptance (clicking the link), and consideration (getting awarded money or points but not necessarily paid yet). There is some precedent that remotely relates to this in that once money is booked (i.e. sales commissions) the structure of the commission cannot be changed retroactively but only moving forward. If you take that precedent and apply it in these situations, when WM change payout terms, anything you already had in cash or points remains as it is and redeemable under the TOS under which it was earned, but the new structure is in place moving forward from the date the member accepted the new TOS (i.e. clicked a link after the TOS changes). And there we have it, an administrative and bookkeeping nightmare -- but the proper, ethical, and legal (for all states except Louisiana in the US) method of doing things.

For all the righteousness displayed, it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to get a US Federal Prosecutor to even spend money to investigate such a matter. While the guidelines for Federal involvement may be low in dollar amount, it is still up to the Sr. US Attorney in the district of the defendant to choose whether or not to pursue the case. If you complain, you may get a perfunctory letter that sounds good, but I'd be quite surprised if something came of it.

Using the individual states' attorneys general is a different matter. You stand a better chance of action being taken, but the downside here is that you will need a sizeable number of citizens in that state to attract attention.

What would be nice is to see a group of responsible, experienced GPT members and webmasters form a professional organization of some sort that would place requirements on webmasters and members alike, and then only join those programs who meet the qualifiying criteria that should include: escrow or holding at least 75% of member earnings at all times in a verifiable and quantifiable manner; the wm should possess the appropriate business license for their particular locale; members would be given an appeals process or grievance method to dispute or negate claims of cheating; etc. etc. etc.

Just my 42 cents worth

M

{QUOTE}Although I agree, you definitely know how some people just like to knock the wms down.

Who me? Now how would i know that?????????? HAHAHA

Yup, just kidding.

I feel sorry for her, she probably bought it cheap on EBAY, and so many of us, think we'd like a piece of the pie for a change, without realizing what is involved.

I've seen sites sold for $25 while scripts were being sold for $150, $300

so $25 looks real good...

Common sense tells me, i don't want to take over anyone elses mistakes, and there has to be plenty of mistakes, if it's being sold, cause it's not profitable.

You all know i'm $18,000 in the hole right?
BUt i made my mistakes, and i started out $180,000 in the hole giving away $20 signup bonus's...

so i've done a fantastic job reducing the deficit.
and i have no doubt in another year, i'll be in profit...

It's called investing time for the future.

Too many look for a quick buck, then run for the hills when the first side of trouble arises.

Too many webmasters can't handle the stress of the complaints from members, so they ignore them...

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes dealing with the same questions over and over because members don't read mails unless it has a paid link, and even then, they scroll down to the paid link ...............

I like keeping my members informed, even when it's bad news...I have a tendency to be too honest, but i pride myself for it...Some members accuse me of whining.....

You have no idea what a webmaster goes through every day on a daily basis!!!!
I think we all need to walk a mile in their shoes...

This poor woman is starting out on the wrong foot, because a lot of members will run to forums complaining, and it only spreads the negativity.

I don't think people going into a ptr site, realize it needs to be run as a business...

Some webmasters operate as its a hobby. Can be very entertaining, but i look at it as a business which needs to be run professionally and courteously...

Then again, i've been acused of being RUDE etc, because i give short and sweet answers....

Some people think i have nothing better to do than write books to them when they ask a question...

hehe

Oh i could go on and on, but i won't bore ya anymore...

I have nothing but sympathy for this gal..

Hi Carole,

either way you look at it, Vickie is cheating all her members who redeemed earnings way way way before she sold the site.

and Colleen knew that much was owed.

and therefore should have withheld payment to vickie.

and vickie on the honor system should have at least used this money from the sale to pay all redemptions or as many as possible.

ah well, live and learn.

gptr programs come and go.

I just ditched this one. They can have the lousy .01 in my account I feel for those who had alot more earnings and referrals

have we gotten a paid email since the new wm came in? hmm... i'm seriously thinking about quitting this one... and i don't usually quit programs til i reach payout!!

Taxlady and Matois. Kudos!

It is enjoyable to read well composed, fact-filled resposnses.

Again, I have nothing but sympathy for the new wm, my intent was never to bash her, expect perhaps on her lack of business acumen.

Taxlady, as to your question about being the only one...

You may not be THE only one but you are part of a select few!

You must sleep well at night!

Well here is how i look at it, some people hack into others sites some people change the rules on their program ever 2 minutes you cannot even keep up. Some people send so few emails, others send emails worth so little money, but people continue to signup. hmmm......

Derrick

And there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Amen

you can forget about cashing out on this one with your old earnings.

all earnings are being put to points for advertising only.

Yes i do sleep well at night..Thank you for that...

I guess it stems back from childhood....I used to do my mother's grocery shopping, etc etc etc.....and if the butcher gave a nickle too much change, she used to make me walk back and give him back the nickle...

I think our upbringing has a lot to do with it, but i try to live by the golden rule.

"do unto others, as you would have others do unto you"...

It works for me...

Thanks for the kind words...Much appreciated.

Happy holidays Carole

Yes, Vickie is definately cheating the members. I agree 100%, she's the one who pocketed the ad money you people worked so hard clicking on...

I never joined this site, because who the original owner was (hacked me 3 times)(he buys and sells sites probably as much as he changes his underwear).
He even offered me $100 for coppercoins.

But the new webmistress, probably purchased on ebay, and you really have no way of knowing what the liabilities are..Sure she could have asked, but would she have gotten an honest answer?

I think she got caught up in the glory of owning a business.

At least she's made some kind of offer to convert to points for advertising.

It's more than some sites did when they got new owners, who just deleted the data base and start over.

I vote for giving her time to prove herself..

As i'm not a member, it really doesn't affect me, but this gal shouldn't have to suffer for the previous owner's lack of honesty and integrety.

Vicky

Thanks Caroline, You too.

I'd be happier if i didn't get stuck with this stupid stomach virus and had to avoid 2 family gatherings...

Oh well, i didn't want to pass anything i might be coming down with along.

So i've had 2 very relaxing days.....

Well semi-relaxing...i did send out 250 mails...hehe

Oh,my.
But I had recieved $2 from her...in September.