Full Version: A Proposal That Cheaters; Be They Members OR Wemas
For my part
well said!
Wow Wolfie....well said.........You make great sense there....
Cant agree with you on the PJ issue tho
Cant agree with you on the PJ issue tho
QUOTE (wolfie @ Dec 6 2002, 09:59 AM)
For my part, I was close to payout on RichardCrowder's EmailTrafficKingdom as well. Payout is not the issue here, however. Had I known Crowder's pattern of past non-payments to others, as well as holding out on payments, I would not have joined this website, in the first place.
The key words here are "HAD I KNOWN".
And, in this regard, I know much about Crowder's past now, having read Dana's vague outline and Shannon's more concise passage.
In both cases, coming from two past associates, too late. The forum allows anonymity for a reason and why could not Dana or Shannon, have sounded a warning bell earlier using another username? Clearly, Crowder's past is tainted and he was a high risk to anyone doing business with him.
That aside, this incident will affect all websites regarding what secrets are shared by owners about each other, and keep from members, in respect to misconduct. And so all will suffer a loss of credibility.
Indeed, the many charities solicited, from flood victims in Germany to Gypsy Dad's house burning down to Adclick's owner's mysterious illness; all of these will be targeted as suspect by many.
As per Shannon's decision to keep Richard on as a member of her website, that is her decision, as it is her website.
Let us not forget however that the large downlines generated by Crowder, in these various PTR Programs, came at the expense of his members, whom he did not pay.
I propose that all webmasters who have Crowder in their data base, as a member, delete him, for the integrity of their websites and to demonstrate that they do not tolerate cheaters; neither members NOR webmasters. To keep him as a member, who built his downline, based on deceit, is an affront to all.
Personally, I have ill feeling towards none; but I do believe in a sense of morality. A ten dollar loss for me is minimal; the act of being cheated is not forgotten, however, nor should it be by anyone. There are only two cheeks which I turn; no more.
The only hero I see here is Cynthia; who came by, in a TIMELY MANNER, to let us know that she too had been had by Crowder, regards non-payment to her hosting service, and thus confirming, in my view, Crowder's departure as "Crowder".
Yes, he may re-enter the system as anyone with any name; male or female, to start a whole new program. Such is the Internet. Consider the "real world" parallel of a business declaring bankruptcy, only to form a new entity using a different name; the name of another family member, typically. In the real world there are some restrictions; not on the Internet.
Finally, as per my PTR choices; plain and simple: REDEEM FOR ADVERTISING before reaching payout. The potential con would rather give you an advert than part with his/her money.
And yes, there are a few good webmasters/mistresses out there; they have a good track record and ae established. Keep informed by reading and reporting good AND bad experiances. Do not be intimidated by apologists who rush to their defence. You are doing us all a favor and allowing the truth to come out. People helping each other is a scenerio in which all benefit.
Do not be afraid to say what is on your mind for fear of being attacked by others. NEVER compromise your quality of morality; in the end this essence of who you are far outweighs any payout you will ever receive as a member of anything.
Thank you for reading and for any feathers ruffled, well, I do not care anymore. I do what I feel I must in words or actions.
The key words here are "HAD I KNOWN".
And, in this regard, I know much about Crowder's past now, having read Dana's vague outline and Shannon's more concise passage.
In both cases, coming from two past associates, too late. The forum allows anonymity for a reason and why could not Dana or Shannon, have sounded a warning bell earlier using another username? Clearly, Crowder's past is tainted and he was a high risk to anyone doing business with him.
That aside, this incident will affect all websites regarding what secrets are shared by owners about each other, and keep from members, in respect to misconduct. And so all will suffer a loss of credibility.
Indeed, the many charities solicited, from flood victims in Germany to Gypsy Dad's house burning down to Adclick's owner's mysterious illness; all of these will be targeted as suspect by many.
As per Shannon's decision to keep Richard on as a member of her website, that is her decision, as it is her website.
Let us not forget however that the large downlines generated by Crowder, in these various PTR Programs, came at the expense of his members, whom he did not pay.
I propose that all webmasters who have Crowder in their data base, as a member, delete him, for the integrity of their websites and to demonstrate that they do not tolerate cheaters; neither members NOR webmasters. To keep him as a member, who built his downline, based on deceit, is an affront to all.
Personally, I have ill feeling towards none; but I do believe in a sense of morality. A ten dollar loss for me is minimal; the act of being cheated is not forgotten, however, nor should it be by anyone. There are only two cheeks which I turn; no more.
The only hero I see here is Cynthia; who came by, in a TIMELY MANNER, to let us know that she too had been had by Crowder, regards non-payment to her hosting service, and thus confirming, in my view, Crowder's departure as "Crowder".
Yes, he may re-enter the system as anyone with any name; male or female, to start a whole new program. Such is the Internet. Consider the "real world" parallel of a business declaring bankruptcy, only to form a new entity using a different name; the name of another family member, typically. In the real world there are some restrictions; not on the Internet.
Finally, as per my PTR choices; plain and simple: REDEEM FOR ADVERTISING before reaching payout. The potential con would rather give you an advert than part with his/her money.
And yes, there are a few good webmasters/mistresses out there; they have a good track record and ae established. Keep informed by reading and reporting good AND bad experiances. Do not be intimidated by apologists who rush to their defence. You are doing us all a favor and allowing the truth to come out. People helping each other is a scenerio in which all benefit.
Do not be afraid to say what is on your mind for fear of being attacked by others. NEVER compromise your quality of morality; in the end this essence of who you are far outweighs any payout you will ever receive as a member of anything.
Thank you for reading and for any feathers ruffled, well, I do not care anymore. I do what I feel I must in words or actions.
I have tired to send warning bells.....
I had written accross E-mail Value site....I would not be held responsible for anything TKO did or any thing they transpired on.....I pm a moderator here to post in news....that I had or wanted NOTHING to do with ETK or TKO and how he refused to remove links to EV
When He pulled fast ones on me ...he was still paying members some at the time....If I had of said something then.....people would of said its because I dont work for him now. or whatever......
There have been numerous posts by others complaining about ETK....
Bad comments at TKO Forums myseriously disappear....
And like anthing...You need to have the SOLID Proof.....to back up your story....not just your one personal expreience...
Sorry the warning didnt come in time
hey its not your fault girl .. ya did the best you could!
Wolfie, for your comments, I have several suggestions. For one , you truly contradict yourself. First you say Dana and myself should have come in under fake ids to post, then go on to talk about the quality of moratlity. Dishonesty is never the best solution.
I will not come in and post as someone else, that is dishonest. I will back up my comments, stand behind them and take what comes from them. To play the coward and hide behind a fake id is not only dishonest, but pathetic. If people are not firmly behind their posts, and they need to hide behind a fake name, well then they shouldnt be posting at all
If Richard breaks the TOS of my site, he will be deleted and I will feel no remorse in doing so. I expect all members to obey the rules, and will delete anyone who doesnt. Some I dont like to delete as they are good people, but the terms are clearly stated and I dont play favorites.
If he starts a new business, it would be under BMM superstores as that is his confirmed business address (if it is in England, no US taxes), although last known he was living in CA. Its not easy getting a verified business account with Paypal with fake information, and would be traceable eventually. If he put it in someone elses name, he runs the risk of them taking it from him, and the way he treats those who work with him, this would be likely.
I followed the same route as Dana. Richard was contacted numberous times off line in private concerning these issues. I put my heart into Electro Email and have done everything I can and didnt want to see him ruin it like he has his other programs. I am not quick to jump on the bandwagon and start bashing. I attempted to solve this problem in private first.
but one can only wait so long before coming to the forum, especially with something like this that could ruin what little bit of reputation he had left. I too have defended Richard in the past, and now, realize it was wrong too.
As I stated in another post, Richard can blame his scripts all he wants, but its crap. His scripts came from Ian and are not defective unless Richard modified them. Ian is highly reputable. I use the same scripts on my site and have had no difficulty at all. So if there is a problem, its Richard.
I will not come in and post as someone else, that is dishonest. I will back up my comments, stand behind them and take what comes from them. To play the coward and hide behind a fake id is not only dishonest, but pathetic. If people are not firmly behind their posts, and they need to hide behind a fake name, well then they shouldnt be posting at all
If Richard breaks the TOS of my site, he will be deleted and I will feel no remorse in doing so. I expect all members to obey the rules, and will delete anyone who doesnt. Some I dont like to delete as they are good people, but the terms are clearly stated and I dont play favorites.
If he starts a new business, it would be under BMM superstores as that is his confirmed business address (if it is in England, no US taxes), although last known he was living in CA. Its not easy getting a verified business account with Paypal with fake information, and would be traceable eventually. If he put it in someone elses name, he runs the risk of them taking it from him, and the way he treats those who work with him, this would be likely.
I followed the same route as Dana. Richard was contacted numberous times off line in private concerning these issues. I put my heart into Electro Email and have done everything I can and didnt want to see him ruin it like he has his other programs. I am not quick to jump on the bandwagon and start bashing. I attempted to solve this problem in private first.
but one can only wait so long before coming to the forum, especially with something like this that could ruin what little bit of reputation he had left. I too have defended Richard in the past, and now, realize it was wrong too.
As I stated in another post, Richard can blame his scripts all he wants, but its crap. His scripts came from Ian and are not defective unless Richard modified them. Ian is highly reputable. I use the same scripts on my site and have had no difficulty at all. So if there is a problem, its Richard.
QUOTE
"you truly contradict yourself. First you say Dana and myself should have come in under fake ids to post, then go on to talk about the quality of moratlity. Dishonesty is never the best solution.
I will not come in and post as someone else, that is dishonest."
I will not come in and post as someone else, that is dishonest."
No Ma'am I do not contradict myself. One must first define Morality and that is an individual endeavour to be sure. Fake IDs as in flanneljava, jazmyni errrrr Wolfie? Perhaps I should give my full name and expect phone calls at night if not a knock on the door by anyone having acess to the forum and so place my family in potential danger. Protecting my family's safety is also a moral attribute, you see.
Usernames are common in public forums to allow people to speak freely with no inhibitions. In an age of stalkers, pranksters, hackers, and mentally ill people, this form of dishonesty may be the best policy to protect one's family and one's self.
I do not hide behind my username to sling slander. Nor do I instruct you to be dishonest. Your interpretation regarding safety online is your own affair. If you wish to use your real name and city in which you live, we are in a democracy after all.
As it is with Richard Crowder of LA; let us hope he did not get someone in his part of the world too angry! He is a search engine away as per address. Have you seen the latest detective software? :ph34r:
As for all other comments made by you and everyone else, many thanks for your contributions.
Yes, something about PJ; Moonieb, I think. Moonieb, I was being an ######, plain and simple.
Teasing Brenda isall. Not right, and that too is part of morality; righting a wrong. God Bless. 
"Wolfie"
QUOTE
To play the coward and hide behind a fake id
Yes, okay tell you what; I'll call you one night. I have enough info for an address and phone number; just express to you what kind of coward I truly am. Small town in Ohio is a few hours drive; I'll come by and truly express myself.
I'm no coward, flanneljava; would you want that demonstrated or just stated. I am prudent and aware of human nature isall. Are you?
BTW I will not be contacting U or coming by to see the family; do not worry. I don't do that stuff nomore. LOL
QUOTE (wolfie @ Dec 6 2002, 05:59 PM)
For my part, I was close to payout on RichardCrowder's EmailTrafficKingdom as well. Payout is not the issue here, however. Had I known Crowder's pattern of past non-payments to others, as well as holding out on payments, I would not have joined this website, in the first place.
The key words here are "HAD I KNOWN".
And, in this regard, I know much about Crowder's past now, having read Dana's vague outline and Shannon's more concise passage.
In both cases, coming from two past associates, too late. The forum allows anonymity for a reason and why could not Dana or Shannon, have sounded a warning bell earlier using another username? Clearly, Crowder's past is tainted and he was a high risk to anyone doing business with him.
That aside, this incident will affect all websites regarding what secrets are shared by owners about each other, and keep from members, in respect to misconduct. And so all will suffer a loss of credibility.
Indeed, the many charities solicited, from flood victims in Germany to Gypsy Dad's house burning down to Adclick's owner's mysterious illness; all of these will be targeted as suspect by many.
As per Shannon's decision to keep Richard on as a member of her website, that is her decision, as it is her website.
Let us not forget however that the large downlines generated by Crowder, in these various PTR Programs, came at the expense of his members, whom he did not pay.
I propose that all webmasters who have Crowder in their data base, as a member, delete him, for the integrity of their websites and to demonstrate that they do not tolerate cheaters; neither members NOR webmasters. To keep him as a member, who built his downline, based on deceit, is an affront to all.
Personally, I have ill feeling towards none; but I do believe in a sense of morality. A ten dollar loss for me is minimal; the act of being cheated is not forgotten, however, nor should it be by anyone. There are only two cheeks which I turn; no more.
The only hero I see here is Cynthia; who came by, in a TIMELY MANNER, to let us know that she too had been had by Crowder, regards non-payment to her hosting service, and thus confirming, in my view, Crowder's departure as "Crowder".
Yes, he may re-enter the system as anyone with any name; male or female, to start a whole new program. Such is the Internet. Consider the "real world" parallel of a business declaring bankruptcy, only to form a new entity using a different name; the name of another family member, typically. In the real world there are some restrictions; not on the Internet.
Finally, as per my PTR choices; plain and simple: REDEEM FOR ADVERTISING before reaching payout. The potential con would rather give you an advert than part with his/her money.
And yes, there are a few good webmasters/mistresses out there; they have a good track record and ae established. Keep informed by reading and reporting good AND bad experiances. Do not be intimidated by apologists who rush to their defence. You are doing us all a favor and allowing the truth to come out. People helping each other is a scenerio in which all benefit.
Do not be afraid to say what is on your mind for fear of being attacked by others. NEVER compromise your quality of morality; in the end this essence of who you are far outweighs any payout you will ever receive as a member of anything.
Thank you for reading and for any feathers ruffled, well, I do not care anymore. I do what I feel I must in words or actions.
The key words here are "HAD I KNOWN".
And, in this regard, I know much about Crowder's past now, having read Dana's vague outline and Shannon's more concise passage.
In both cases, coming from two past associates, too late. The forum allows anonymity for a reason and why could not Dana or Shannon, have sounded a warning bell earlier using another username? Clearly, Crowder's past is tainted and he was a high risk to anyone doing business with him.
That aside, this incident will affect all websites regarding what secrets are shared by owners about each other, and keep from members, in respect to misconduct. And so all will suffer a loss of credibility.
Indeed, the many charities solicited, from flood victims in Germany to Gypsy Dad's house burning down to Adclick's owner's mysterious illness; all of these will be targeted as suspect by many.
As per Shannon's decision to keep Richard on as a member of her website, that is her decision, as it is her website.
Let us not forget however that the large downlines generated by Crowder, in these various PTR Programs, came at the expense of his members, whom he did not pay.
I propose that all webmasters who have Crowder in their data base, as a member, delete him, for the integrity of their websites and to demonstrate that they do not tolerate cheaters; neither members NOR webmasters. To keep him as a member, who built his downline, based on deceit, is an affront to all.
Personally, I have ill feeling towards none; but I do believe in a sense of morality. A ten dollar loss for me is minimal; the act of being cheated is not forgotten, however, nor should it be by anyone. There are only two cheeks which I turn; no more.
The only hero I see here is Cynthia; who came by, in a TIMELY MANNER, to let us know that she too had been had by Crowder, regards non-payment to her hosting service, and thus confirming, in my view, Crowder's departure as "Crowder".
Yes, he may re-enter the system as anyone with any name; male or female, to start a whole new program. Such is the Internet. Consider the "real world" parallel of a business declaring bankruptcy, only to form a new entity using a different name; the name of another family member, typically. In the real world there are some restrictions; not on the Internet.
Finally, as per my PTR choices; plain and simple: REDEEM FOR ADVERTISING before reaching payout. The potential con would rather give you an advert than part with his/her money.
And yes, there are a few good webmasters/mistresses out there; they have a good track record and ae established. Keep informed by reading and reporting good AND bad experiances. Do not be intimidated by apologists who rush to their defence. You are doing us all a favor and allowing the truth to come out. People helping each other is a scenerio in which all benefit.
Do not be afraid to say what is on your mind for fear of being attacked by others. NEVER compromise your quality of morality; in the end this essence of who you are far outweighs any payout you will ever receive as a member of anything.
Thank you for reading and for any feathers ruffled, well, I do not care anymore. I do what I feel I must in words or actions.
nicely said.
QUOTE (Flanneljava @ Dec 6 2002, 10:58 PM)
Wolfie, for your comments, I have several suggestions. For one , you truly contradict yourself. First you say Dana and myself should have come in under fake ids to post, then go on to talk about the quality of moratlity. Dishonesty is never the best solution.
I will not come in and post as someone else, that is dishonest. I will back up my comments, stand behind them and take what comes from them. To play the coward and hide behind a fake id is not only dishonest, but pathetic. If people are not firmly behind their posts, and they need to hide behind a fake name, well then they shouldnt be posting at all
If Richard breaks the TOS of my site, he will be deleted and I will feel no remorse in doing so. I expect all members to obey the rules, and will delete anyone who doesnt. Some I dont like to delete as they are good people, but the terms are clearly stated and I dont play favorites.
If he starts a new business, it would be under BMM superstores as that is his confirmed business address (if it is in England, no US taxes), although last known he was living in CA. Its not easy getting a verified business account with Paypal with fake information, and would be traceable eventually. If he put it in someone elses name, he runs the risk of them taking it from him, and the way he treats those who work with him, this would be likely.
I followed the same route as Dana. Richard was contacted numberous times off line in private concerning these issues. I put my heart into Electro Email and have done everything I can and didnt want to see him ruin it like he has his other programs. I am not quick to jump on the bandwagon and start bashing. I attempted to solve this problem in private first.
but one can only wait so long before coming to the forum, especially with something like this that could ruin what little bit of reputation he had left. I too have defended Richard in the past, and now, realize it was wrong too.
As I stated in another post, Richard can blame his scripts all he wants, but its crap. His scripts came from Ian and are not defective unless Richard modified them. Ian is highly reputable. I use the same scripts on my site and have had no difficulty at all. So if there is a problem, its Richard.
I will not come in and post as someone else, that is dishonest. I will back up my comments, stand behind them and take what comes from them. To play the coward and hide behind a fake id is not only dishonest, but pathetic. If people are not firmly behind their posts, and they need to hide behind a fake name, well then they shouldnt be posting at all
If Richard breaks the TOS of my site, he will be deleted and I will feel no remorse in doing so. I expect all members to obey the rules, and will delete anyone who doesnt. Some I dont like to delete as they are good people, but the terms are clearly stated and I dont play favorites.
If he starts a new business, it would be under BMM superstores as that is his confirmed business address (if it is in England, no US taxes), although last known he was living in CA. Its not easy getting a verified business account with Paypal with fake information, and would be traceable eventually. If he put it in someone elses name, he runs the risk of them taking it from him, and the way he treats those who work with him, this would be likely.
I followed the same route as Dana. Richard was contacted numberous times off line in private concerning these issues. I put my heart into Electro Email and have done everything I can and didnt want to see him ruin it like he has his other programs. I am not quick to jump on the bandwagon and start bashing. I attempted to solve this problem in private first.
but one can only wait so long before coming to the forum, especially with something like this that could ruin what little bit of reputation he had left. I too have defended Richard in the past, and now, realize it was wrong too.
As I stated in another post, Richard can blame his scripts all he wants, but its crap. His scripts came from Ian and are not defective unless Richard modified them. Ian is highly reputable. I use the same scripts on my site and have had no difficulty at all. So if there is a problem, its Richard.
very good points.
QUOTE (jazmyni @ Dec 6 2002, 10:11 PM)
QUOTE (wolfie @ Dec 6 2002, 09:59 AM)
For my part, I was close to payout on RichardCrowder's EmailTrafficKingdom as well. Payout is not the issue here, however. Had I known Crowder's pattern of past non-payments to others, as well as holding out on payments, I would not have joined this website, in the first place.
The key words here are "HAD I KNOWN".
And, in this regard, I know much about Crowder's past now, having read Dana's vague outline and Shannon's more concise passage.
In both cases, coming from two past associates, too late. The forum allows anonymity for a reason and why could not Dana or Shannon, have sounded a warning bell earlier using another username? Clearly, Crowder's past is tainted and he was a high risk to anyone doing business with him.
That aside, this incident will affect all websites regarding what secrets are shared by owners about each other, and keep from members, in respect to misconduct. And so all will suffer a loss of credibility.
Indeed, the many charities solicited, from flood victims in Germany to Gypsy Dad's house burning down to Adclick's owner's mysterious illness; all of these will be targeted as suspect by many.
As per Shannon's decision to keep Richard on as a member of her website, that is her decision, as it is her website.
Let us not forget however that the large downlines generated by Crowder, in these various PTR Programs, came at the expense of his members, whom he did not pay.
I propose that all webmasters who have Crowder in their data base, as a member, delete him, for the integrity of their websites and to demonstrate that they do not tolerate cheaters; neither members NOR webmasters. To keep him as a member, who built his downline, based on deceit, is an affront to all.
Personally, I have ill feeling towards none; but I do believe in a sense of morality. A ten dollar loss for me is minimal; the act of being cheated is not forgotten, however, nor should it be by anyone. There are only two cheeks which I turn; no more.
The only hero I see here is Cynthia; who came by, in a TIMELY MANNER, to let us know that she too had been had by Crowder, regards non-payment to her hosting service, and thus confirming, in my view, Crowder's departure as "Crowder".
Yes, he may re-enter the system as anyone with any name; male or female, to start a whole new program. Such is the Internet. Consider the "real world" parallel of a business declaring bankruptcy, only to form a new entity using a different name; the name of another family member, typically. In the real world there are some restrictions; not on the Internet.
Finally, as per my PTR choices; plain and simple: REDEEM FOR ADVERTISING before reaching payout. The potential con would rather give you an advert than part with his/her money.
And yes, there are a few good webmasters/mistresses out there; they have a good track record and ae established. Keep informed by reading and reporting good AND bad experiances. Do not be intimidated by apologists who rush to their defence. You are doing us all a favor and allowing the truth to come out. People helping each other is a scenerio in which all benefit.
Do not be afraid to say what is on your mind for fear of being attacked by others. NEVER compromise your quality of morality; in the end this essence of who you are far outweighs any payout you will ever receive as a member of anything.
Thank you for reading and for any feathers ruffled, well, I do not care anymore. I do what I feel I must in words or actions.
The key words here are "HAD I KNOWN".
And, in this regard, I know much about Crowder's past now, having read Dana's vague outline and Shannon's more concise passage.
In both cases, coming from two past associates, too late. The forum allows anonymity for a reason and why could not Dana or Shannon, have sounded a warning bell earlier using another username? Clearly, Crowder's past is tainted and he was a high risk to anyone doing business with him.
That aside, this incident will affect all websites regarding what secrets are shared by owners about each other, and keep from members, in respect to misconduct. And so all will suffer a loss of credibility.
Indeed, the many charities solicited, from flood victims in Germany to Gypsy Dad's house burning down to Adclick's owner's mysterious illness; all of these will be targeted as suspect by many.
As per Shannon's decision to keep Richard on as a member of her website, that is her decision, as it is her website.
Let us not forget however that the large downlines generated by Crowder, in these various PTR Programs, came at the expense of his members, whom he did not pay.
I propose that all webmasters who have Crowder in their data base, as a member, delete him, for the integrity of their websites and to demonstrate that they do not tolerate cheaters; neither members NOR webmasters. To keep him as a member, who built his downline, based on deceit, is an affront to all.
Personally, I have ill feeling towards none; but I do believe in a sense of morality. A ten dollar loss for me is minimal; the act of being cheated is not forgotten, however, nor should it be by anyone. There are only two cheeks which I turn; no more.
The only hero I see here is Cynthia; who came by, in a TIMELY MANNER, to let us know that she too had been had by Crowder, regards non-payment to her hosting service, and thus confirming, in my view, Crowder's departure as "Crowder".
Yes, he may re-enter the system as anyone with any name; male or female, to start a whole new program. Such is the Internet. Consider the "real world" parallel of a business declaring bankruptcy, only to form a new entity using a different name; the name of another family member, typically. In the real world there are some restrictions; not on the Internet.
Finally, as per my PTR choices; plain and simple: REDEEM FOR ADVERTISING before reaching payout. The potential con would rather give you an advert than part with his/her money.
And yes, there are a few good webmasters/mistresses out there; they have a good track record and ae established. Keep informed by reading and reporting good AND bad experiances. Do not be intimidated by apologists who rush to their defence. You are doing us all a favor and allowing the truth to come out. People helping each other is a scenerio in which all benefit.
Do not be afraid to say what is on your mind for fear of being attacked by others. NEVER compromise your quality of morality; in the end this essence of who you are far outweighs any payout you will ever receive as a member of anything.
Thank you for reading and for any feathers ruffled, well, I do not care anymore. I do what I feel I must in words or actions.
I have tired to send warning bells.....
I had written accross E-mail Value site....I would not be held responsible for anything TKO did or any thing they transpired on.....I pm a moderator here to post in news....that I had or wanted NOTHING to do with ETK or TKO and how he refused to remove links to EV
When He pulled fast ones on me ...he was still paying members some at the time....If I had of said something then.....people would of said its because I dont work for him now. or whatever......
There have been numerous posts by others complaining about ETK....
Bad comments at TKO Forums myseriously disappear....
And like anthing...You need to have the SOLID Proof.....to back up your story....not just your one personal expreience...
Sorry the warning didnt come in time
Sounds like you took reasonable actions to spread the word. Rock hard proof is often needed, in these cases can often boil down to just ones word.
Then you can be accuse of having immoral intentions slandering someone for personal reasons. All you can do is warn, you can't force people to think.
QUOTE (wolfie @ Dec 7 2002, 04:55 PM)
QUOTE
To play the coward and hide behind a fake id
Yes, okay tell you what; I'll call you one night. I have enough info for an address and phone number; just express to you what kind of coward I truly am. Small town in Ohio is a few hours drive; I'll come by and truly express myself.
I'm no coward, flanneljava; would you want that demonstrated or just stated. I am prudent and aware of human nature isall. Are you?
BTW I will not be contacting U or coming by to see the family; do not worry. I don't do that stuff nomore. LOL
I can understand why you got a little upset, but even in a joking manner personal injury conflict threats shouldn't be used.
QUOTE
I can understand why you got a little upset, but even in a joking manner personal injury conflict threats shouldn't be used.
Yes you are right, Shadowman and I do wish to retract that which was meant to be humourous for the reason you mentioned. No malice was intended. Rather I was confused asto why Flanneljava ripped into me as she did.
I was not accusing her, anymore then I was accusing Jazmyni, of anything. Having read Jazmyni's post, I commend her for doing all she could do.
As per the post by Flanneljava, it begins with a personal attack. For what? Did she do all she could as well? I do not know nor care either way In a PM with Flanneljava she came across as an affable individual and mentioned her relationship with the Crowder "Empire". BUT did not go as far as mentioning it's corrupt foundations as Jazmyni had tried to do. (The post is pasted below.) And she keeps Crowder's downline conceived of deceit, intact on her site. But as I mentioned earlier, it is her site her affair. I will have nothing more to say to her or about her.
Shadowman, one obvious threat regarding Crowder has been missed: He still has an entire database of his membership; their email addresses and personal information ie. postal addresses.
Can we truly beleive he will still honour his privacy policy? Hardly. We must expect he will sell all the email addresses of his membership to the highest bidder. We must expect the worse in such matters.
Let me end this string, or is it thread, LOL, on a jokes of sorts.
At least we who we cheated can rest assured that we contributed to Crowder's Christmas gifts this festive season.
I'll leave it here; time to move on to other things. Thanks again for your observations regards my visceral reaction to Flanneljava; the last I mention of her or to her.
Regards,
Bill
Re:Thank You
Oct 21 2002, 03:25 AM [ Forward PM | Reply ]
Author Private Message [ Delete PM ]
Flanneljava
Group: Program Owners
Posts: 121
Joined: 8-May 02
Yes, I was include in the pocket change email about Richard. Myself and Jazymin were both helping him out, although we have our own programs now, actually we own the ones we were running for him.
I have a church I truly miss, but its in another state. I do pray often though, and regular, but in my own way. I talk to him more often then praying I guess, but it seems to work, as I turn things over to him. I maybe far from rich, but the bills get paid and there is food on the table, and for that I am thankful.
Jade will appreciate everyones help. I have over 500 ecards to deliver to her next sunday at her fundraiser. It will be a good day for her.
Thanks again for writing, and keep in touch.
Shannon
--------------------
Electro Email Webmaster
Flanneljava
everyone would have known sooner as i was 2 seconds away from nailing him
BUT!!! jazmyni herself + enchanted and the others sent me pms etc to not post in forums
so i was out numbered and couldnt continue
BUT!!! jazmyni herself + enchanted and the others sent me pms etc to not post in forums
so i was out numbered and couldnt continue
well I for one am sick of this happening! is there anything at all we can do to try and get our money?? I wasn't yet at payout but I wasn't that far from it either.. I worked ###### hard, stayed 100% active and only a few weeks ago got an ad to promote it and got myself 8 referrals.. soon after that my account was deleted.. I got it back with less money, less referrals and not much of an excuse really!!
This SUCKS!
All I can say is after all of this he better have a bloody good explanation and if he takes off then tries to start another program I'll definately be boycotting it
This SUCKS!
All I can say is after all of this he better have a bloody good explanation and if he takes off then tries to start another program I'll definately be boycotting it
QUOTE (JulietNZ @ Dec 8 2002, 08:36 PM)
well I for one am sick of this happening! is there anything at all we can do to try and get our money?? I wasn't yet at payout but I wasn't that far from it either.. I worked ###### hard, stayed 100% active and only a few weeks ago got an ad to promote it and got myself 8 referrals.. soon after that my account was deleted.. I got it back with less money, less referrals and not much of an excuse really!!
This SUCKS!
All I can say is after all of this he better have a bloody good explanation and if he takes off then tries to start another program I'll definately be boycotting it
This SUCKS!
All I can say is after all of this he better have a bloody good explanation and if he takes off then tries to start another program I'll definately be boycotting it
i can tell you what we can do
go to http://www.isaaf.com
some post a complaint
everyone else back it up
and then we can file a class action law suit like what we were going to do with nitoclick but he sold the site
that is how we can get our money or atleast get DIC*K to pay for his actions
QUOTE (kiwinz @ Dec 8 2002, 04:31 PM)
everyone would have known sooner as i was 2 seconds away from nailing him
BUT!!! jazmyni herself + enchanted and the others sent me pms etc to not post in forums
so i was out numbered and couldnt continue
BUT!!! jazmyni herself + enchanted and the others sent me pms etc to not post in forums
so i was out numbered and couldnt continue
Query: Who was sitting at the keyboard, you or them??
Wolfie and Shadowman: Your posts were both informative and well said. It's nice to see honesty and morality as you both exemplified. Thank you both.
Ron
QUOTE (wolfie @ Dec 7 2002, 08:55 AM)
QUOTE
To play the coward and hide behind a fake id
Yes, okay tell you what; I'll call you one night. I have enough info for an address and phone number; just express to you what kind of coward I truly am. Small town in Ohio is a few hours drive; I'll come by and truly express myself.
I'm no coward, flanneljava; would you want that demonstrated or just stated. I am prudent and aware of human nature isall. Are you?
BTW I will not be contacting U or coming by to see the family; do not worry. I don't do that stuff nomore. LOL
I was merely stating I will not hide behind a fake name. I use one username and only one. I have the same username on everything. I have no problem with people knowing who I am or where I am. Everytime I make a purchase or pay someone with paypal, my address and all is there, I am verified business. I dont worry about people coming after me or the kids. I am not rich, so ransom notes would do them no good.
for one, as stated in your post of our pm, I am a Christian, and I count on God to provide the protection I need. I live my life according to his rules and I know he will watch out for us. I dont hide, and have no reason too.
for two, if you want to call or come by go ahead. If its to late at night, I will simply answer, and if your nice, we can talk, if your not being nice, I will just lay the phone down on the desk and go back to bed.
If you come by to visit, I would invite you in and if you were civial, we could enjoy a cup of coffee, if you got out of line, you would be told to leave, and if you didnt, I would grab my steel lead pipe given to me by a friend on the force when my ex husband stalked me. I disapprove of violence, but if someone threatens me, my kids or my pets, I will do what I can, and God knows that too. So simple enough, you want to contact me, go ahead.
QUOTE (kiwinz @ Dec 8 2002, 08:31 AM)
everyone would have known sooner as i was 2 seconds away from nailing him
BUT!!! jazmyni herself + enchanted and the others sent me pms etc to not post in forums
so i was out numbered and couldnt continue
BUT!!! jazmyni herself + enchanted and the others sent me pms etc to not post in forums
so i was out numbered and couldnt continue
Everyone can be mad at me all they want.......
Durning my time in this industry. I have seen programs and webmasters take hard hits to thier reputations for misunderstandings.
This is what I was trying to AVIOD
Richard and Email Traffic Kingdom (both had Good Reputations in the industry)
I was a scorned EX EMPLOYEE
Now If I had of come just with my suspicions and No proof....
Think about the for a sec....
I would of been a lyer,,,jelous. and all kinds of nasty things. eveyone would of wanted proof which I didnt not have at the time......
It would of gone threw the same little thing and it would of been forgot on the Next HOT Topic in the compliants folder came along.
For the record there were MANY MANY other webmasters who had an idea on what was up too....but no one came to tell anyone??
Why??
There reputations and how the announcement would effect thier programs.
So....I can only say sorry I didnt have the proof sooner.
Jazymni,
Many of us suspected, but could not come forward with proof. Especially those of us who had worked for him. If we come on and say something, well we are jealous and all. I agree.
I knew in time, Richards sites would fall. He was neglecting the programs, members and advertisers to much as well as mistreating the people working for him, but how do you back that up without proof. He disappearance and the sites being shut down was enough to give some validity to the claims.
You have saved E-Mail Value and I have saved Electro Email from sharing the same fate, and I am sure the members appreciate it.
Dont worry about it all, you did what you had to do, when you thought you could do it.
Many of us suspected, but could not come forward with proof. Especially those of us who had worked for him. If we come on and say something, well we are jealous and all. I agree.
I knew in time, Richards sites would fall. He was neglecting the programs, members and advertisers to much as well as mistreating the people working for him, but how do you back that up without proof. He disappearance and the sites being shut down was enough to give some validity to the claims.
You have saved E-Mail Value and I have saved Electro Email from sharing the same fate, and I am sure the members appreciate it.
Dont worry about it all, you did what you had to do, when you thought you could do it.
Hi Jaz and flanneljava,
A lot of us know it's not easy to know when and what to say .... especially when you run a site and are responsible of its good name towards your members ....
Had this TKO thing been said before, many wouldn't have believed it anyway ....
I think the members appreciate that some webmasters finally say what they had to, not more than necessary and just enough so everyone could have a fair opinion ;-)
I appreciate when webmasters can't be bought by praises or by threatenings .... when they do what they think is right .... without insulting and bashing.
I think I should have started a praise thread instead :-))
Sophie
A lot of us know it's not easy to know when and what to say .... especially when you run a site and are responsible of its good name towards your members ....
Had this TKO thing been said before, many wouldn't have believed it anyway ....
I think the members appreciate that some webmasters finally say what they had to, not more than necessary and just enough so everyone could have a fair opinion ;-)
I appreciate when webmasters can't be bought by praises or by threatenings .... when they do what they think is right .... without insulting and bashing.
I think I should have started a praise thread instead :-))
Sophie
QUOTE (jazmyni @ Dec 9 2002, 03:55 AM)
QUOTE (kiwinz @ Dec 8 2002, 08:31 AM)
everyone would have known sooner as i was 2 seconds away from nailing him
BUT!!! jazmyni herself + enchanted and the others sent me pms etc to not post in forums
so i was out numbered and couldnt continue
BUT!!! jazmyni herself + enchanted and the others sent me pms etc to not post in forums
so i was out numbered and couldnt continue
Everyone can be mad at me all they want.......
Durning my time in this industry. I have seen programs and webmasters take hard hits to thier reputations for misunderstandings.
This is what I was trying to AVIOD
Richard and Email Traffic Kingdom (both had Good Reputations in the industry)
I was a scorned EX EMPLOYEE
Now If I had of come just with my suspicions and No proof....
Think about the for a sec....
I would of been a lyer,,,jelous. and all kinds of nasty things. eveyone would of wanted proof which I didnt not have at the time......
It would of gone threw the same little thing and it would of been forgot on the Next HOT Topic in the compliants folder came along.
For the record there were MANY MANY other webmasters who had an idea on what was up too....but no one came to tell anyone??
Why??
There reputations and how the announcement would effect thier programs.
So....I can only say sorry I didnt have the proof sooner.
im not mad at you
well said wolfie I wish other webmasters would also get rid of richard in their programs. When they don't and let him continue to click it lets him sit back and laugh at the members he took advantage of. And he gets of scot free no punishment what so ever. And like you said he is just a name change away from running another web site I believe the webmasters should ban together and cut him off from all clicking.
And the next time richard loggs in to a web site let him get
BAD USER NAME
and see how it feels
I believe the webmasters should ban together and cut him off from all clicking. And the next time richard loggs in to a web site let him get
BAD USER NAME
and see how it feels
I have sat back and watched all the Jay and flannel stuff and didn't say a word while everyone said this and that...... You people Amaze me yes Richard has probably ripped everyone off ,scammed all of us and being first in line to want to stone him. But your asking flannel and other webmasters to violate thier own toss richard as far as it goes hasn't violated any TOS and for a webmaster to delete him for personal reasons IS PURELY UNPROFFESIONAL. go read the 45 plus pages that happened the last 2 days and than come back here and say something. It just amazes me how people bash Jay for deleting flannel but than come here and want her to do just what he did.
Just amazes me how people forget yesterday and don't care about tomorrow.
Just amazes me how people forget yesterday and don't care about tomorrow.
QUOTE (tommy052366 @ Dec 8 2002, 10:49 PM)
I have sat back and watched all the Jay and flannel stuff and didn't say a word while everyone said this and that...... You people Amaze me yes Richard has probably ripped everyone off ,scammed all of us and being first in line to want to stone him. But your asking flannel and other webmasters to violate thier own toss richard as far as it goes hasn't violated any TOS and for a webmaster to delete him for personal reasons IS PURELY UNPROFFESIONAL. go read the 45 plus pages that happened the last 2 days and than come back here and say something. It just amazes me how people bash Jay for deleting flannel but than come here and want her to do just what he did.
Just amazes me how people forget yesterday and don't care about tomorrow.
Just amazes me how people forget yesterday and don't care about tomorrow.
Thank you. It is nice to see that some members understand why I will not remove Richard as he has not broken any of the terms of service. If he does, I will delete him without a second thought, but until he does, he will stay. Although I figure my account at ETK will be deleted as soon as he read the other posts I made.
QUOTE (JulietNZ @ Dec 8 2002, 08:36 AM)
well I for one am sick of this happening! is there anything at all we can do to try and get our money?? I wasn't yet at payout but I wasn't that far from it either.. I worked ###### hard, stayed 100% active and only a few weeks ago got an ad to promote it and got myself 8 referrals.. soon after that my account was deleted.. I got it back with less money, less referrals and not much of an excuse really!!
This SUCKS!
All I can say is after all of this he better have a bloody good explanation and if he takes off then tries to start another program I'll definately be boycotting it
This SUCKS!
All I can say is after all of this he better have a bloody good explanation and if he takes off then tries to start another program I'll definately be boycotting it
Something does not smell right here. Jay seemed to be taken in by both Richard and venomx. What I have just read. Richard and venomx both do not pay their members and so forth. I think we need webmasters who are honest to weed out the ones who are not honest from their programs.
QUOTE (kiwinz @ Dec 8 2002, 08:39 AM)
QUOTE (JulietNZ @ Dec 8 2002, 08:36 PM)
well I for one am sick of this happening! is there anything at all we can do to try and get our money?? I wasn't yet at payout but I wasn't that far from it either.. I worked ###### hard, stayed 100% active and only a few weeks ago got an ad to promote it and got myself 8 referrals.. soon after that my account was deleted.. I got it back with less money, less referrals and not much of an excuse really!!
This SUCKS!
All I can say is after all of this he better have a bloody good explanation and if he takes off then tries to start another program I'll definately be boycotting it
This SUCKS!
All I can say is after all of this he better have a bloody good explanation and if he takes off then tries to start another program I'll definately be boycotting it
i can tell you what we can do
go to http://www.isaaf.com
some post a complaint
everyone else back it up
and then we can file a class action law suit like what we were going to do with nitoclick but he sold the site
that is how we can get our money or atleast get DIC*K to pay for his actions
kiwinz, people will also file complaints as well against venomx as well since he does not pay people either just like Richard.
QUOTE (Flanneljava @ Dec 8 2002, 05:31 PM)
Jazymni,
Many of us suspected, but could not come forward with proof. Especially those of us who had worked for him. If we come on and say something, well we are jealous and all. I agree.
I knew in time, Richards sites would fall. He was neglecting the programs, members and advertisers to much as well as mistreating the people working for him, but how do you back that up without proof. He disappearance and the sites being shut down was enough to give some validity to the claims.
You have saved E-Mail Value and I have saved Electro Email from sharing the same fate, and I am sure the members appreciate it.
Dont worry about it all, you did what you had to do, when you thought you could do it.
Many of us suspected, but could not come forward with proof. Especially those of us who had worked for him. If we come on and say something, well we are jealous and all. I agree.
I knew in time, Richards sites would fall. He was neglecting the programs, members and advertisers to much as well as mistreating the people working for him, but how do you back that up without proof. He disappearance and the sites being shut down was enough to give some validity to the claims.
You have saved E-Mail Value and I have saved Electro Email from sharing the same fate, and I am sure the members appreciate it.
Dont worry about it all, you did what you had to do, when you thought you could do it.
Okay, if I remember what Jay posted, Richard told him it was okay with the two accounts. I am wondering if he set Jay and Sherry up to lose their reputation?
QUOTE (Flanneljava @ Dec 8 2002, 05:31 PM)
Jazymni,
Many of us suspected, but could not come forward with proof. Especially those of us who had worked for him. If we come on and say something, well we are jealous and all. I agree.
I knew in time, Richards sites would fall. He was neglecting the programs, members and advertisers to much as well as mistreating the people working for him, but how do you back that up without proof. He disappearance and the sites being shut down was enough to give some validity to the claims.
You have saved E-Mail Value and I have saved Electro Email from sharing the same fate, and I am sure the members appreciate it.
Dont worry about it all, you did what you had to do, when you thought you could do it.
Many of us suspected, but could not come forward with proof. Especially those of us who had worked for him. If we come on and say something, well we are jealous and all. I agree.
I knew in time, Richards sites would fall. He was neglecting the programs, members and advertisers to much as well as mistreating the people working for him, but how do you back that up without proof. He disappearance and the sites being shut down was enough to give some validity to the claims.
You have saved E-Mail Value and I have saved Electro Email from sharing the same fate, and I am sure the members appreciate it.
Dont worry about it all, you did what you had to do, when you thought you could do it.
Okay, how many webmasters out there neglected their sirtes, members, or advertisers? CosmicWealth neglected several of their members. EarnWithPaul is another one. And venomx has neglected his members, and have been abusive towards them when they complaimed. I am seeing Jay doing the same thing as these others about snapping at them, and so forth. Jay was never like this until recently. I have talked to several people, and we are concerned about Jay. We don't want him to go down the same road as these others.
QUOTE (Poncer @ Dec 9 2002, 02:07 AM)
QUOTE (Flanneljava @ Dec 8 2002, 05:31 PM)
Jazymni,
Many of us suspected, but could not come forward with proof. Especially those of us who had worked for him. If we come on and say something, well we are jealous and all. I agree.
I knew in time, Richards sites would fall. He was neglecting the programs, members and advertisers to much as well as mistreating the people working for him, but how do you back that up without proof. He disappearance and the sites being shut down was enough to give some validity to the claims.
You have saved E-Mail Value and I have saved Electro Email from sharing the same fate, and I am sure the members appreciate it.
Dont worry about it all, you did what you had to do, when you thought you could do it.
Many of us suspected, but could not come forward with proof. Especially those of us who had worked for him. If we come on and say something, well we are jealous and all. I agree.
I knew in time, Richards sites would fall. He was neglecting the programs, members and advertisers to much as well as mistreating the people working for him, but how do you back that up without proof. He disappearance and the sites being shut down was enough to give some validity to the claims.
You have saved E-Mail Value and I have saved Electro Email from sharing the same fate, and I am sure the members appreciate it.
Dont worry about it all, you did what you had to do, when you thought you could do it.
Okay, if I remember what Jay posted, Richard told him it was okay with the two accounts. I am wondering if he set Jay and Sherry up to lose their reputation?
I doubt that would be it. In order for Richard to think about setting up Jay and Sherry, then he would have had to take into consideration the maintance and care for a program, something he knows little to nothing about.
I spend 4-6 hours a day working on my program at least, often more. That is what it takes, and yes, I am getting through the database at a slow pace, but I am trying to be as efficient and complete as possible running each members data for matches. I delete inactives manually as well.
Richard wouldnt have thought of me finding the two accounts, cause he never would have if it were in his program without his knowledge. He uses the auto features to keep database clean, which helps, but isnt as complete.
So, I dont think he set them up, and this whole thread wouldnt have even started if threats had not been made about ruining my program and the ones about Jade. The lost accounts upset me as it was not right, but I wouldnt have started this thread just over that.
Wolfie started this thread. 
QUOTE (Poncer @ Dec 8 2002, 07:01 PM)
QUOTE (JulietNZ @ Dec 8 2002, 08:36 AM)
well I for one am sick of this happening! is there anything at all we can do to try and get our money?? I wasn't yet at payout but I wasn't that far from it either.. I worked ###### hard, stayed 100% active and only a few weeks ago got an ad to promote it and got myself 8 referrals.. soon after that my account was deleted.. I got it back with less money, less referrals and not much of an excuse really!!
This SUCKS!
All I can say is after all of this he better have a bloody good explanation and if he takes off then tries to start another program I'll definately be boycotting it
This SUCKS!
All I can say is after all of this he better have a bloody good explanation and if he takes off then tries to start another program I'll definately be boycotting it
Something does not smell right here. Jay seemed to be taken in by both Richard and venomx. What I have just read. Richard and venomx both do not pay their members and so forth. I think we need webmasters who are honest to weed out the ones who are not honest from their programs.
Still trying to convince yourself that Jay was magically hypnotized by venomx and "turned against you"? Still can't face the fact that he saw through your BS on his own, and got tired of your crap?
How sad, in a Norman Bates kinda way.
QUOTE (Poncer @ Dec 9 2002, 12:01 PM)
Something does not smell right here. Jay seemed to be taken in by both Richard and venomx. What I have just read. Richard and venomx both do not pay their members and so forth. I think we need webmasters who are honest to weed out the ones who are not honest from their programs.
I've been paid by Venomx and had plenty of good results with my advertising!
BTW ElectroEmail is one of the BEST programs out there at the moment!!
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